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Aug 25th, '11, 01:09
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Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by Maxwell2079 » Aug 25th, '11, 01:09

Hi everybody,

The other day I was having a conversation ( PM) with Chen from zishateapot
and she explained:
Zi ni has two main kinds, shen zi ni (dark zi ni) and hong zi ni (red zi ni). Dark zi ni appears more purple and dark, while hong zi ni appears more red. Zi qie ni belongs to the dark zi ni.


I am only familiar with regular zi ni.

Does anyone know what different subtypes of hong zi ni clays there are and what is the different result after brewing tea if you compare to shen zi ni?

Thanks

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Aug 25th, '11, 03:23
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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by betta » Aug 25th, '11, 03:23

There's no real science which correlates the effect of clay to the teapot. Moreover adding too many science into tea drinking culture may ruin the fun of drinking tea.
It is just too complex to draw a clear conclusion on this topic, because the taste of the tea depends heavily on many other factors, such as thickness, water temperature, brewing skill. Your psychological condition also affects the taste of tea you drink.

However based on years of exposure to tea and teapot some people draw a clearer tendency. Several members here share what they heard from other experienced drinker.
This is one of the example.

For your information, shen = dark and hong = red.
I think he mentioned about darker color and reddish/brownish color zini.
As far as I know, many seasoned tea drinker recommend brown/darker color clay for puerh. Again, the color depends heavily on the firing temperature, too... Chrl in this forum can help you more about it.

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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by tingjunkie » Aug 25th, '11, 18:02

I'm at the point where I really try to avoid agonizing over what each clay is called. It's just too confusing and different people have different definitions. Then you have the issue of people blending different clay types. :shock: Ultimately, in my opinion, the type of clay is not the determining factor in how well a pot brews tea. More important considerations are the quality of each clay, the firing temperature, the size and shape of the pot, and the thickness of the pots walls.

First of all, it's good to know the following: zi = purple, hong = red, lu = green, hei = black, and duan = yellow. Also, sha = sand and ni = clay. According to most people, the term "zisha" (while it literally means purple sand) is an umbrella term which gets applied universally to all types of Yixing clay, regardless of color.

My understanding is that there is a family of darker clays collectively known as "zini"- this would include pin zini, dia cao qing, qing shui ni, zi qie ni, etc. There are many who will also separate high quality, pure, sandy purple clay, and specifically call that "zisha." In other words, zisha can mean zini and every other Yixing clay, or it can refer to a very specific type of sandy purple Yixing clay. Confused yet?

As for hongni, this means red clay, and I've always considered it to be in a different family than zini. As far as subdivisions of hongni, some people say zhuni (an extremely fine particle red clay that fuses at lower temperatures than other clays, but shrinks more and is denser when fired) belongs in the hongni family. Otherwise, people may talk about hongni in terms of what mountain it was mined from, and each having their own merits and accolades, but it's mostly all considered the same type of clay.

Chrl42 and others are definitely more knowledgeable about the topic than I. Here is a great post chrl42 wrote over on Teadrunk- http://teadrunk.org/viewtopic.php?id=47

My best advice is to not get too hung up on it. There' good clay and bad clay, fantastic clay and mediocre clay, good pots and bad pots. You have to try a bunch, pay some tuition and get your feet wet before you really start to understand. Good luck on your quest. :wink:

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Aug 25th, '11, 21:09
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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by Maxwell2079 » Aug 25th, '11, 21:09

Hi,

I would like to thank you all for your replies.

Tinjunkie, it is indeed agonizing learning all the names. :mrgreen:
Luckily, I have passed that very first step of at least learning the main types of clays etc (however, I bet there are many more I don't know ), after reading every single post I found dealing with names and all that :lol: . And also reading from other sites, since as you can imagine there is no info or tea masters when it comes to tea in argentina. But I am still a newbie, and I still need try several different pots a clays to have a deeper understanding I guess :oops: I have been drinking tea for 3 to 4 years, have only a few pots (mainly tuition pots).

I have learnt a lot from the most knowledgeable tea chatters, like chrl42, TIM, you and many others. Marshal has a nice blog too. H_B has been very kind & bagua have helped me as well.
I have already read the post you mentioned by chrl and it is great indeed.

Anyhow, once I thought I was getting familiar with most common types, Chen mentioned these 2 different subdivisions of zi ni. Hong zi ni & Shen zi ni. For what she said, zi qie ni belongs to shen zi ni.
At first I thougth she was refering to hong ni by hong zi ni and I asked her.
But she explicitly told me that hong ni was totally different from hong zi ni.
Basically the reason why I started this topic, aside from my eagerness to learn, is because I wanted to buy like 5 pots from Chen, different clays and tried them.
So if you can tell me anything about the different varieties of hong zi ni & shen zi ni it would be nice.

I didn't want to end up buying pots and more pots but I think once you start there is no turning back. It happened the same in my case with pu :mrgreen:

Thx again!!
Last edited by Maxwell2079 on Aug 25th, '11, 21:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by wyardley » Aug 25th, '11, 21:52

To put it more simply, there are clays which appear reddish, but which are not considered "hong ni". Also, within the classification hong ni, you could break it down to general type ("xiao hong ni"), and even the mine of origin if you want to be that nerdy about it.

But knowing that information only helps you so much, especially when you're just starting out. I would mostly ask yourself whether you like the way the pot looks, and whether the asking price is worth it to you.

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Aug 25th, '11, 22:30
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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by Maxwell2079 » Aug 25th, '11, 22:30

Thx wyardley,

Well the pots looks good to me imho and little kowledge, aside from that I have been reading some reviews here of people who got the shouzhen pots and the tests with them were ok apparently, like the one betta did.
The only problem I read about was the volume issue (showing less volume in the website than the actual one) and a twisted spout in a shui ping.

I will of course do tests with them I try to put in words what i felt and post it. Not an expert but will do my best. Maybe will help someone like me who want to buy pots from this potter in the future.
I just wanted to know about these clays I asked abou to see if it was worth it to buy one of each.
So far I decide I will buy a zhuni from xiao mei yao (as Chen specify).
A duan ni and a di cao qing.

As for price don't ask :lol:
Buying in USD is expensive for people in my country. But I won't be able to go to China for now. And as you probably know is really hard to get nice pots online.

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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by tingjunkie » Aug 26th, '11, 00:29

Maxwell2079 wrote:
So far I decide I will buy a zhuni from xiao mei yao (as Chen specify).
A duan ni and a di cao qing.
That will be a good education indeed! It seems you have done your research extremely well, but just in case you haven't seen this method of testing pots (parts 1 & 2, nicely written by Brandon), it's extremely helpful... http://chahai.net/yixing-evaluation-part-one/ Enjoy your purchases, and I hope they live up to your expectations!

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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by Maxwell2079 » Aug 26th, '11, 00:52

Thx a lot tingjunkie.

I have read that one too. But good you post it, so i can bookmark it. Cause I liked the test when i first read it but didn't remember in what post it was.

Certainly i have read many posts like a madman :lol:.
But now I can relax and enjoy more. At the beginning it was rather confusing. :shock: The more you read the most confusing it gets sometimes.
Now is time for direct experience, I will let you know the outcome and if the pots live up to my expectations.
Haven't read the puerh section yet, another endless journey, but i will stop the reading a bit. :lol:


Don't want to bore you with details, but in case someone is interested this is the information Chen gave about Duan ni (they got 2 types):
Our Duan ni is from Huang Long Shan. Ben Shan duan ni is from mine 4# and tiao sha duan ni from 5# mine.
Cheers

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Re: Shen Zi ni and Hong zi ni question

by bagua7 » Aug 26th, '11, 08:24

Maxwell2079 wrote:Well the pots looks good to me imho and little kowledge, aside from that I have been reading some reviews here of people who got the shouzhen pots and the tests with them were ok apparently, like the one betta did.
The only problem I read about was the volume issue 1. (showing less volume in the website than the actual one) 2. and a twisted spout in a shui ping.
1. Check this out:

http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ot#p194335

2. If that's the case surely Chen would have exchanged the faulty teapot without any issues.

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