New to Japanese green teas and teaware

[Frisbeehead]

Hey there,

I have been drinking tea for a few months now, mostly Taiwanese oolong, yancha, and pu-erh. I am interested in getting into sencha, gyokuro, and matcha. I recently ordered the beginner's matcha setup from O-Cha and am very excited to get it and try it out (I got the kiri-no-mori Uji matcha).

After browsing teachat for a while and doing extensive searches and digging through threads, I have discovered a whole wonderful world of exquisite Japanese teaware a and delicious gyokuro and sencha. I would very much like to be a part of this!

My first goal is to get a kyusu. I was considering getting a yixing teapot for yancha originally, but I think I'm going to give myself a little more time so I can do more research on clay types and find one that will work well for me. A couple of sites I see recommended often for kyusu are artisticnippon and Hojo. I have browsed through both sites, and I have seen a bunch of kyusu that I really like. I just have a couple of questions that I'd like to ask before making any purchases.

I really was looking for one that is anywhere around 150-200ml, but it seems most kyusu are 200ml+. Is there any particular reason for this? I assume it's because you use yixing pots in gongfu, which uses smaller amounts of water. From what I gathered, brewing sencha and gyokuro is different. However, I have heard that when brewing quality gyokuro that using a small pot is preferred. Does anyone have any input on this? Again, I am new to this and all I know is from what I have read on here and sites like O-Cha.

Second, does the clay type play a big part in selecting kyusu as it does with yixing pots? Again I assume since with a kyusu that since it is mostly just used for sencha and gyokuro that it wouldn't matter so much. But I would like to hear anyone else's input.

Third, how do you brew your sencha or gyokuro? I am very familiar with gongfu and have been enjoying my oolong and pu-erh by brewing this way in my gaiwan. However I know it's a little different with Japanese green teas. I have also heard that gyokuro is brewed similar to gongfu style, using smaller amounts of water and a high leaf ratio. This is because gyokuro is high quality and it is good to savor the taste. What are everyone's thoughts on brewing sencha? Gyokuro?

And finally, is a kyusu a good way to go if I want to get into drinking sencha and guokuro? Like I said before, I have some matcha and the tools for it on the way so I have that figured out already. But I have also seen Japanese teaware that looks like a gaiwan and cha hai, but is a littl different (I forget the name of it).

I have been looking at the teas on sites such as O-Cha (mentioned earlier), Yukki-Cha, Ippodo, and Yunomi. Are there any others that you recommend? How about sites for Japanese teaware?

Sorry for such a long post. If you were patient and read through it all, thank you.

[Tead Off]

As a vendor, you have to take my comments with some scepticism. For who knows, I may only be beating my own drum.

IMO, the best vessels for green teas are some Japanese kyusu and Korean teapots. More importantly, which kyusu and teapots from either culture will give you what you are looking for. This can only be answered through your own experimentation and taste. So, you'll have to spend some money to enter this school.

Many times, it's aesthetics that get chosen over more important elements such as clay, firing techniques, & size. If you drink alone or with another, a vessel at least 100ml is a good place to start. 100-180ml is probably more common. Gyokuro is different and small batches of good quality are preferred by many. Under 90ml and flatter type shiboridashi and hohin are very good and practical. Small servings of this elixir go a long way.

Natural clays are best. Porcelain, local stonewares, mostly unglazed interiors, although there are exceptions, are preferred. You can read the recommendations of users on Teachat and try to make a decision.

Japanese teas have little relation to Chinese gongfu brewing. Gongfu requires small pots and packing of the pot with tea. This can get very expensive with higher quality teas. You also use very hot water and quick brews. Japanese teas are more delicate and most use lower temp and longer brew times. You can use hot water with Japanese teas and quick brews, but I think a lot of the subtlety is lost by doing so. It's really a different world than Chinese teas.

Matcha is a fun experience, but in Japanese culture, its depth is far beyond all the others. Not because it tastes better, but because of the associated ritual and value that is placed on aesthetics and mindfulness. Chawan are routinely used and hold a high place in Japanese history & culture. Museums are filled with the works of masters. It's a vast subject and an expensive one. Developing an eye and appreciation for chawan requires a different set of values than all the other teaware. They may be the 'ultimate' tea vessel of all. Many of the Japanese chawan owe their development to the Korean tea bowls which are highly prized in Japan. This is a big subject.

[Frisbeehead]

As a vendor, you have to take my comments with some scepticism. For who knows, I may only be beating my own drum.

IMO, the best vessels for green teas are some Japanese kyusu and Korean teapots. More importantly, which kyusu and teapots from either culture will give you what you are looking for. This can only be answered through your own experimentation and taste. So, you'll have to spend some money to enter this school.

Many times, it's aesthetics that get chosen over more important elements such as clay, firing techniques, & size. If you drink alone or with another, a vessel at least 100ml is a good place to start. 100-180ml is probably more common. Gyokuro is different and small batches of good quality are preferred by many. Under 90ml and flatter type shiboridashi and hohin are very good and practical. Small servings of this elixir go a long way.

Natural clays are best. Porcelain, local stonewares, mostly unglazed interiors, although there are exceptions, are preferred. You can read the recommendations of users on Teachat and try to make a decision.

Japanese teas have little relation to Chinese gongfu brewing. Gongfu requires small pots and packing of the pot with tea. This can get very expensive with higher quality teas. You also use very hot water and quick brews. Japanese teas are more delicate and most use lower temp and longer brew times. You can use hot water with Japanese teas and quick brews, but I think a lot of the subtlety is lost by doing so. It's really a different world than Chinese teas.

Matcha is a fun experience, but in Japanese culture, its depth is far beyond all the others. Not because it tastes better, but because of the associated ritual and value that is placed on aesthetics and mindfulness. Chawan are routinely used and hold a high place in Japanese history & culture. Museums are filled with the works of masters. It's a vast subject and an expensive one. Developing an eye and appreciation for chawan requires a different set of values than all the other teaware. They may be the 'ultimate' tea vessel of all. Many of the Japanese chawan owe their development to the Korean tea bowls which are highly prized in Japan. This is a big subject.

Thanks for the response, Tead! Always good to read what you have to say.

It's absolutely a big subject. And what you said about chawans- I have definitely discovered that. I watched a 30min video the other day someone posted on here (or reddit's r/tea, don't remember) of an American potter that is very well respected in the Japanese ceramics community talking about the importance and grades of chawan.

Shiboridashi and hohin! That's right. I saw a very nice shiboridashi set on a site recently that I was looking at. Do you think having a kyusu for sencha and a shiboridashi/houhin for gyokuro is a good idea?

As far as what you said about brewing Japanese green teas- how different is the leaf/water ratio compared to gongfu with oolong/pu-erh? For example, in my 150ml gaiwan I typically use around 6-9grams of leaf. In a ~200ml kyusu, how much leaf would you typically use? I know you want the temperature around 165° F for gyokuro and 175° for sencha (if I'm wrong please correct me).

And what you said about matcha echoes what I have read and heard. There is a series called Japanology on NHK that dedicated an episode to matcha, and another to the Japanese Tea Ceremony. I have since watched a few different videos about chanoyu. It's really intriguing.

So am I on the right path as far as buying a kyusu and maybe a shiboridashi set for gyokuro? Artisticnippon has a ton of cool kyusu that I have been looking at, and so does Hojo. I wish they had more that were less than 250ml, but I digress.

Thanks for the response! I'm excited to try the matcha from O-Cha when the package arrives. The chawan I got with it is nice, at least it will be good for my first one. I have been looking at artisan chawan and ones made by professionals, and they can be absolutely gorgeous (albeit usually very minimal).

Also, I posted a few different sites that I intend to use for Japanese tea/teaware. Any others you recommend?

Edit: found the shiboridashi set I was talking about:

https://www.o-cha.com/shiboridashi-teapot.html

[Tead Off]

Do you think having a kyusu for sencha and a shiboridashi/houhin for gyokuro is a good idea? SURE

As far as what you said about brewing Japanese green teas- how different is the leaf/water ratio compared to gongfu with oolong/pu-erh? For example, in my 150ml gaiwan I typically use around 6-9grams of leaf. In a ~200ml kyusu, how much leaf would you typically use? I know you want the temperature around 165° F for gyokuro and 175° for sencha (if I'm wrong please correct me). TOO SUBJECTIVE. I LIKE COOLER WATER. I TYPICALLY USE LESS LEAF WITH JAPANESE TEAS

So am I on the right path as far as buying a kyusu and maybe a shiboridashi set for gyokuro? Artisticnippon has a ton of cool kyusu that I have been looking at, and so does Hojo. I wish they had more that were less than 250ml, but I digress. AGAIN, TOO SUBJECTIVE FOR ME TO COMMENT.

Edit: found the shiboridashi set I was talking about:

https://www.o-cha.com/shiboridashi-teapot.html

NOT MY TASTE, IT'S SUBJECTIVE

[Frisbeehead]

Do you think having a kyusu for sencha and a shiboridashi/houhin for gyokuro is a good idea? SURE

As far as what you said about brewing Japanese green teas- how different is the leaf/water ratio compared to gongfu with oolong/pu-erh? For example, in my 150ml gaiwan I typically use around 6-9grams of leaf. In a ~200ml kyusu, how much leaf would you typically use? I know you want the temperature around 165° F for gyokuro and 175° for sencha (if I'm wrong please correct me). TOO SUBJECTIVE. I LIKE COOLER WATER. I TYPICALLY USE LESS LEAF WITH JAPANESE TEAS

So am I on the right path as far as buying a kyusu and maybe a shiboridashi set for gyokuro? Artisticnippon has a ton of cool kyusu that I have been looking at, and so does Hojo. I wish they had more that were less than 250ml, but I digress. AGAIN, TOO SUBJECTIVE FOR ME TO COMMENT.

Edit: found the shiboridashi set I was talking about:

https://www.o-cha.com/shiboridashi-teapot.html

NOT MY TASTE, IT'S SUBJECTIVE

Were the bold and caps really necessary? I didn't mean to make you upset. I know it's subjective, so I guess those were dumb questions.

Edit: I realized the bold was to make it stand out in the quote. Sorry! Took it the wrong way.

I'll just have to buy one and experiment. That's the fun part, really.

[Tead Off]

Yes, just to make it stand out.

There is also the matter of being polite to other vendors.

[Frisbeehead]

Yes, just to make it stand out.

There is also the matter of being polite to other vendors.

I apologize

Edit: Found your teaware post from a while back, I'll have to take a look!

[debunix]

My favorite way to brew sencha is in my 150mL unglazed iron-rich stoneware kyusu from Petr Novak, and my favorite way to brew gyokuro is wavering back and forth between my Shimizu Ken nosaka kyusu (unglazed) or my celadon shiboridashi by Shawn McGuire (fully glazed).

It's almost as much about sharing duties amongst the teawares as about getting the ultimate match between brewing vessel and tea. When a combination of vessel/tea is not as good as that tea should be (at least as good as the same tea in a glazed porcelain gaiwan, my neutral standard), I avoid it; and if I have an amazing brewing experience in one particular vessel, I tend to repeat it, but a fine tea can provide wonderful infusions in many different vessels.

Starting out, it's may be better to get a less-expensive but practical pot/kyusu/gaiwan/shibo and see what you do and don't like about using it, and after you've used that for a while, then consider investing in a more expensive piece that fits your evolving preferences for brewing style and aesthetics. As long as the brewing vessel is reasonably functional (adequate ability to strain leaves without clogging, more important when you're doing the flash infusions often discussed with young sheng puerh, or if you prefer the deep-steamed fukamushi with very fine pieces of leaf, decent pour without drips, comfortable grip for your hands, easy to clean up), it can probably make fine tea.

[Peacock]

Keep in mind, with a Kyusu you don't have to fill it to the rim when you're brewing tea. I often use a 7-8 oz pot when I'm drinking 4 oz of tea.

If you're unsure of where to start then pick a vendor that gives you recommendations on brew length and how much leave to use. In the beginning it will help until you develop your intuition to where you are comfortable with brewing.

[Frisbeehead]

My favorite way to brew sencha is in my 150mL unglazed iron-rich stoneware kyusu from Petr Novak, and my favorite way to brew gyokuro is wavering back and forth between my Shimizu Ken nosaka kyusu (unglazed) or my celadon shiboridashi by Shawn McGuire (fully glazed).

It's almost as much about sharing duties amongst the teawares as about getting the ultimate match between brewing vessel and tea. When a combination of vessel/tea is not as good as that tea should be (at least as good as the same tea in a glazed porcelain gaiwan, my neutral standard), I avoid it; and if I have an amazing brewing experience in one particular vessel, I tend to repeat it, but a fine tea can provide wonderful infusions in many different vessels.

Starting out, it's may be better to get a less-expensive but practical pot/kyusu/gaiwan/shibo and see what you do and don't like about using it, and after you've used that for a while, then consider investing in a more expensive piece that fits your evolving preferences for brewing style and aesthetics. As long as the brewing vessel is reasonably functional (adequate ability to strain leaves without clogging, more important when you're doing the flash infusions often discussed with young sheng puerh, or if you prefer the deep-steamed fukamushi with very fine pieces of leaf, decent pour without drips, comfortable grip for your hands, easy to clean up), it can probably make fine tea.

Thanks for the response and for the advice!

You're right, it would be a good idea to start off with a lower priced but practical kyusu or shiboridashi/houhin set. But those Shimizu Ken kyusu are so enticing

I just want to drink sencha and gyokuro, I don't want all my attention to go to teaware. I focus too much sometimes on the material objects that go with something rather than the thing itself. As a musician, I have had some serious gear-addiction before