A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

One of the intentionally aged teas, Pu-Erh has a loyal following.


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Sep 6th, '15, 04:37
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Tead Off » Sep 6th, '15, 04:37

shah82 wrote:Cwyn, I very much wonder if latitude is a background meta-factor behind how well puerh stores.
It stands to reason that it does. But cakes can be ruined in those latitudes, too.

The same tea may give a different profile after 10 years of aging in different geographical regions. For those who live in N. America & Europe, how can you know if your cakes are aging as well as someone who is storing the same cakes in SE Asia over a period of years in a somewhat controlled environment? I'm not sure any of the teas mentioned by you or others living outside SE Asia may be comparable in casual conversation to those living here after say 10 years of storage. I think you just have to make due with where you are and setup a situation that will help you get optimal aging. If your teas are satisfying you, then it's a step in the right direction.

Sep 6th, '15, 13:56
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Cwyn » Sep 6th, '15, 13:56

I have had so much bad puerh from Asia, and every single day on social media I see more of my friends ordering and receiving a kilo or more of bad tea. One of the big reasons is the poor quality leaf, which the vast majority of puerh tea being sold today has. No latitude is going to make that tea any better.

The climate outdoors is not the same as climate indoors. Where will the tea be aging? If one does not have a perfect climate indoors, then one must create a microclimate for the tea.

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Sep 6th, '15, 22:32
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Tead Off » Sep 6th, '15, 22:32

Cwyn wrote:I have had so much bad puerh from Asia, and every single day on social media I see more of my friends ordering and receiving a kilo or more of bad tea. One of the big reasons is the poor quality leaf, which the vast majority of puerh tea being sold today has. No latitude is going to make that tea any better.

The climate outdoors is not the same as climate indoors. Where will the tea be aging? If one does not have a perfect climate indoors, then one must create a microclimate for the tea.
The first step is to identify good tea. If you can do that, you're way ahead of the pack.

As for latitude, if latitude were not important, none of the puerh collectors outside of the SE Asian latitudes would not be experimenting with storage conditions and setting up rooms that try to duplicate what SE Asia has innately. Don't confuse bad tea with bad storage. A good tea gets exposed to the heat and humidity very easily here. If you live in a super humid micro-climate, you have to take steps to limit the wetness. But it's the outside weather that will determine most of the aging unless you create a totally artificial environment for your cakes to avoid any fluctuations in climate. The outside climate also accounts for the fermentation process continuing smoothly. In France, you have regional bacteria that produce certain cheeses like Roquefort. You cannot produce this cheese elsewhere and expect it to be the same.

Sep 7th, '15, 01:50
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by shah82 » Sep 7th, '15, 01:50

I don't expect the difference to be overwhelming all other effects like humidity, etc, but I've gotten the distinct feeling that day-night circadian rhythms are very much part of the biological fermenting process. It just seems like people have a harder time with storage in the Pacific NW than I do, or in NYC. And poor Balthazar has to deal with insta-souring in his native Scandinavia.

Sep 8th, '15, 22:35
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Cwyn » Sep 8th, '15, 22:35

French cheese is not the best example because they don't pasteurize milk in the best cheeses. That accounts for a huge difference at the start. Another is what the cows actually eat. Better comparisons are fermenting vegetables, plant material, as tea is a plant and not an animal product.

Storage solutions in the west are all about heat and humidity. Latitude as a separate factor is a non sequitur because heat and humidity can be found at varying latitudes. Tibet gets as cold as Wisconsin or Russia. My ancestors have been fermenting vegetables in crocks as a dietary necessity for centuries, specifically for the creation of vitamin C. Crocks create a stable microclimate for fermentation and are ideal for plant material. In Minnesota, Mandala Tea invested in a climate controlled vault and their tea is doing very well, better than it "should" be.

Shah doesn't need a microclimate or crocks because he lives in a climate that has decent conditions year round. I get heat and humidity in the summer at a much more northern latitude. During the summer I can expose my tea, and in the winter I have to create a microclimate.

Since much of puerh aging is anecdotal, what we know about Asian conditions are like everywhere else: if you ignore your puerh, getting decent tea is really just luck. A collector in Asia or anywhere else with decent tea paid attention to their tea or got lucky under the floorboards.. In Asia, tea can rot or mold or even dry out in many places. The same can happen anywhere else.

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Sep 9th, '15, 00:30
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Tead Off » Sep 9th, '15, 00:30

Cwyn wrote:French cheese is not the best example because they don't pasteurize milk in the best cheeses. That accounts for a huge difference at the start. Another is what the cows actually eat. Better comparisons are fermenting vegetables, plant material, as tea is a plant and not an animal product.

Storage solutions in the west are all about heat and humidity. Latitude as a separate factor is a non sequitur because heat and humidity can be found at varying latitudes. Tibet gets as cold as Wisconsin or Russia. My ancestors have been fermenting vegetables in crocks as a dietary necessity for centuries, specifically for the creation of vitamin C. Crocks create a stable microclimate for fermentation and are ideal for plant material. In Minnesota, Mandala Tea invested in a climate controlled vault and their tea is doing very well, better than it "should" be.

Shah doesn't need a microclimate or crocks because he lives in a climate that has decent conditions year round. I get heat and humidity in the summer at a much more northern latitude. During the summer I can expose my tea, and in the winter I have to create a microclimate.

Since much of puerh aging is anecdotal, what we know about Asian conditions are like everywhere else: if you ignore your puerh, getting decent tea is really just luck. A collector in Asia or anywhere else with decent tea paid attention to their tea or got lucky under the floorboards.. In Asia, tea can rot or mold or even dry out in many places. The same can happen anywhere else.
For sure, heat and humidity are key factors. Anywhere. But, the combination of heat and humidity in SE Asia seems to be the standard and puerh enthusiasts try to emulate those conditions wherever they are. But, there is another factor involved, and I tried to point that out with the cheese example. Whenever you ferment anything, bacteria become a key component. One of the factors with Roquefort cheese is a certain bacteria found in the region where Roquefort is made. I think originally, they were stored in caves. The regional bacteria will play a factor in the aging process.

I'm not saying you can't get good results elsewhere in the world, but they may not be the same results as we get in SE Asia. It's the same with wine and cheeses. Try to get a good Camembert anywhere outside of Normandy. Nothing has ever tasted the same to me and I've had cheese that has not been pasteurized in other countries that have tried to duplicate some of the French cheeses like Camembert and Roquefort. But, then we move into a subjective territory of likes and dislikes. I think terroir, however, is an important factor, not only in the growing of Puerh, but also the fermenting of it.

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Sep 12th, '15, 06:23
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Balthazar » Sep 12th, '15, 06:23

shah82 wrote:And poor Balthazar has to deal with insta-souring in his native Scandinavia.
Thanks for the mention, I have been able to salvage a small amount of puer through crock storage (salvage as in significantly slow down the souring process, not improving the teas through aging), but most of my stuff is packed away in boxes that I hope will magically disappear some day.

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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by kyarazen » Sep 12th, '15, 13:46

Balthazar wrote: Thanks for the mention, I have been able to salvage a small amount of puer through crock storage (salvage as in significantly slow down the souring process, not improving the teas through aging), but most of my stuff is packed away in boxes that I hope will magically disappear some day.
awesome~ using ceramic wares to store the pu will help moderate temperature dynamics significantly :D

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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by shah82 » Sep 12th, '15, 14:04

All my boxes of tea are under a couple of layers of blanket.

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Sep 13th, '15, 01:06
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Tead Off » Sep 13th, '15, 01:06

shah82 wrote:All my boxes of tea are under a couple of layers of blanket.
It's also good to keep the cows under the floor directly below the Puerh. :D

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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by shah82 » Sep 13th, '15, 01:15

they are stored in a sunroom, so need insulation from light and daytime heating.

Sep 15th, '15, 14:31
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by glenbo » Sep 15th, '15, 14:31

Tead Off wrote: It's also good to keep the cows under the floor directly below the Puerh. :D
I have actually seen this in Bulang. They live in pile houses about 7ft above the ground. The tea is stored in bags on the floor of their homes. Every night the cows come home and live under the floor at ground level.

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Sep 16th, '15, 00:04
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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by Tead Off » Sep 16th, '15, 00:04

glenbo wrote:
Tead Off wrote: It's also good to keep the cows under the floor directly below the Puerh. :D
I have actually seen this in Bulang. They live in pile houses about 7ft above the ground. The tea is stored in bags on the floor of their homes. Every night the cows come home and live under the floor at ground level.
:lol: :lol: They do this in Switzerland in farm houses for extra warmth. Not sure how the puerh turns out there. :lol:

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Re: A personal discovery about the meaning of storage...

by glenbo » Sep 16th, '15, 14:51

Tead Off wrote: :lol: :lol: They do this in Switzerland in farm houses for extra warmth. Not sure how the puerh turns out there. :lol:
I'll confess, it's a bit unsettling sleeping on the floor of a home a few feet above a herd of cows. That constant motion and presence is odd. I kept waking up and feeling like I was surrounded.

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