Oolong Learning Curve - Price Performance

[Herb_Master]

I recently opened Dragon Tea House, Huang Zhi Dan Cong.

The first infusion was overpoweringly scented, as if a lady had just walked into the room who had more than overdone it with the perfume bottle that day!

I have no real idea what Orange Blossom smells like, but it seemed unlike Orange peel/oil much more like roses and spring flowers like hyacinths perhaps. BTW I do have some philadelphus (Mexican/Mock Orange in the garden maybe I should try some Huang Zhi type DanCong in June and compare).

2nd Infusion really fragrant, as were 3rd, 4th and 5th - the only trouble is that from the 3rd infusion onwards everything became more and more bitter.

Immediately I began to recall Tim's warning - in - How do you brew your phoenix Dan Cong?

You can taste it if you had enough bad tea imo. The first steeping will usually overpowering fragrant and will turn to immediate bitterness after the 3rd, leaving your mouth dry and uncomfortable.

It was not too astringent so I was able to persevere and the fragranxce was there even after 7 infusions.

I have since had 3 sessions with it varying vessel between Gaiwan and Yixing, temperature of near boiling, and slightly lower, and much lower, trying lower temps on later infusions and shorter steeps. It always stays fragrant and always turns to bitterness quickly. I was reluctant to post this info as DTH have provided me with good teas and teaware in the past, but decided to test out my new observations on my other DTH DanCongs, plus a couple from Hou De and Teance.

It inevitably meant I had to try the DTH Big Grey Leaf that Thanks gave such a slating too. My first infusion produced a mixed bag of flavours and (was I being influenced by Thanks' diatribe) it seemed dirty and with a greener taste of light roasted anxi rather than floral DanCong, [but maybe It needed a longer wash] 2nd, 3rd and 4th infusions it was already improving in my estimation the dirty flavours had gone and some pleasant minerally light bitterness and a tad of astringency were making it interesting but pleasant. 5th, 6th and 7th infusions I really enjoyed.

Then on to DTH Ba Xian, which without being in any way sensational is my favourite, much less floral, but then "8 Immortals" is not exactly resonant of fragrance. The interesting mixture of flavour notes kept my mind enjoying it through several infusions. I enjoy this more than my Teance Almond fragrance and Honey Orchid fragrance and nearly as much as my Hou De Yellow Branch.

THEN I started looking at prices
Dragon Tea House
Organic Phoenix Dan Cong Oolong Huangzhi Flavour 100g -$9.80
Da Wu Ye * Big Grey Leaf Organic Fenghuang Dancong 100g - $13.99
Organic Phoenix Ba Xian Flavour Dancong Oolong 100g - $19.20

Teance
Phoenix Single Grove Honey Fragrance Oolong 2oz - $25
Phoenix Single Grove Almond Fragrance 2oz - $31

Hou De
2007 Winter FengHuang WuDong Old Bush DanCong "Huang Jing", 4oz $33.00

of course the HouDe comes cheaper for 4oz than it does for 20z but still looks good value against the others. That apart I get the impression that the more I have paid the more I enjoyed it and that was without even thinking about cost when I was tasting the teas.

Presumably if you get a supplier that you trust then you can expect to pay more for a BETTER tea!

[Bubba_tea]

Thanks for the notes Herb Master - I've been looking for more economical versions of the Teance Honey or Charcoal Dongding. In a different vein, I would suggest checking out the 'everyday' tea section at Jing $5usd / 100g for decent everyday tea.

[wyardley]

Well I think it's a no-brainer that generally speaking expensive teas are going to be better tasting than cheaper ones.

That said, when you're buying tea, there are a lot of variables that affect the final cost, including:

* Vendor markup, vendors connections and negotiating abilities, as well as where the vendor is in the food chain. A vendor who buys stuff directly from the producer, or who has their own farms (and there are plenty of vendors who say they buy from the producer or have their own farms but don't) is obviously going to be able to offer competitive prices, even if their mark-up is the same, or lower, than another vendor. A vendor who can negotiate a good price or has family or social connections may similarly be able to get a better price.
* Shipping costs, import duties if the vendor works over the table.
* Complexity and subtlety of flavor... sometimes a tea that's more subtle or complex may not have the "bang" that a cheaper tea may have, but there's more going on. There are times when you might want a tea that's good enough, but un-complex enough that you can have it along with food, or enjoy it while you're working without having to think too much.
* Rareness / scarcity of the tea (certain prestige teas may cost more simply because of their name, or their relative rareness.
* Amount of production done by hand.... of course, in many cases, a hand produced tea will also taste "better" (whatever that means), but there's also more room for error. So a poorly-crafted fully-hand produced tea might not taste as "good" as a well made tea that's prepared using more modern technology. And of course, teas that are labor-intensive to produce (hand-destemming) will probably reflect that in the cost as well.
* Certification - if the vendor has any sort of organic certification, there are fees (or bribes) involved.
* Other types of overhead, for example, rent for the shops that have brick and mortar operations, as well as any staff costs.
* How good the vendor is at marketing and selling the tea.
* And last, is simply how good the vendor's buyer is at choosing tea, as well as how much their personal preferences (as far as taste goes) are aligned with yours.

So it's not always an apples to apples to comparison if you compare the cost of a particular tea from one vendor to that of another. And in many cases, you'd probably be surprised if you knew the wholesale cost of both vendors' teas.

Confounding all this, some teas are trickier than others to brew, and on a particular day, your brewing skills (or the alignment of the stars) will be a little off, and you'll decide a particular tea is no good. If you don't like a tea at first, I personally suggest giving most teas you try 2-3 tries before you completely write them off (of course, some teas are simply not that good, and there's a point where you have to be confident enough to decide that "it's not me, it's you".

Overall, you're usually not going to get the very best teas for any amount of money. The next best teas are almost always going to cost a lot of money if you can get them, but just because you spend a lot of money doesn't mean you're going to get the great tea. So it's a very tricky business, and there's usually a lot of tuition along the way. Learning to be confident in your own palate is something that's very hard for many people (myself included) to do.

By the way, if you have good local vendors, I think it's important to support them. Buying tea online is great and all, and sometimes it's the only way to get something you're looking for, but it usually involves a lot of mistakes, misunderstandings, trial and error. You can save a lot of money by trying a tea before you buy it, brewed by someone who (hopefully) knows what they're doing. This will give you some idea of the tea's potential, though it can be a little misleading if the brewer is *too* skilled (make sure they use boiling water and porcelain or glass when you're trying the teas).

[tenuki]

Regardless of tea quality the skillful brewing can prevent the sort of bitterness you describe. I bet there is a way to brew this tea that avoids it. Find it!

[Herb_Master]

Well I think it's a no-brainer that generally speaking expensive teas are going to be better tasting than cheaper ones.

Yes, me too, but when you are on a mission looking for tea and you want to spread your bucks round a good selection - AND then while waiting for it to be delivered you see so many forum members describing real bargains, and praising teas highly, and everyone has a good word for the vendor you chose - and then when it arrives and eventually you get round to sampling it and have forgotten how little you paid

That said, when you're buying tea, there are a lot of variables that affect the final cost, including:

* Vendor markup, vendors connections and negotiating abilities, as well as where the vendor is in the food chain. A vendor who buys stuff directly from the producer, or who has their own farms (and there are plenty of vendors who say they buy from the producer or have their own farms but don't) is obviously going to be able to offer competitive prices, even if their mark-up is the same, or lower, than another vendor. A vendor who can negotiate a good price or has family or social connections may similarly be able to get a better price.
* Shipping costs, import duties if the vendor works over the table.
* Complexity and subtlety of flavor... sometimes a tea that's more subtle or complex may not have the "bang" that a cheaper tea may have, but there's more going on. There are times when you might want a tea that's good enough, but un-complex enough that you can have it along with food, or enjoy it while you're working without having to think too much.
* Rareness / scarcity of the tea (certain prestige teas may cost more simply because of their name, or their relative rareness.
* Amount of production done by hand.... of course, in many cases, a hand produced tea will also taste "better" (whatever that means), but there's also more room for error. So a poorly-crafted fully-hand produced tea might not taste as "good" as a well made tea that's prepared using more modern technology. And of course, teas that are labor-intensive to produce (hand-destemming) will probably reflect that in the cost as well.
* Certification - if the vendor has any sort of organic certification, there are fees (or bribes) involved.
* Other types of overhead, for example, rent for the shops that have brick and mortar operations, as well as any staff costs.
* How good the vendor is at marketing and selling the tea.
* And last, is simply how good the vendor's buyer is at choosing tea, as well as how much their personal preferences (as far as taste goes) are aligned with yours.

So it's not always an apples to apples to comparison if you compare the cost of a particular tea from one vendor to that of another. And in many cases, you'd probably be surprised if you knew the wholesale cost of both vendors' teas.

Wise words, I knew a lot of them already, probably knew them all. But it is great for forum members to remind each other from time to time - lest we forget

I had forgotten that just because I was favourably impressed with a selection of Oolong from one vendor, that when selecting Oolongs from the same vendor but a different oolong region that he may be using different buyer/suppliers.

Confounding all this, some teas are trickier than others to brew, and on a particular day, your brewing skills (or the alignment of the stars) will be a little off, and you'll decide a particular tea is no good. If you don't like a tea at first, I personally suggest giving most teas you try 2-3 tries before you completely write them off (of course, some teas are simply not that good, and there's a point where you have to be confident enough to decide that "it's not me, it's you".

Overall, you're usually not going to get the very best teas for any amount of money. The next best teas are almost always going to cost a lot of money if you can get them, but just because you spend a lot of money doesn't mean you're going to get the great tea. So it's a very tricky business, and there's usually a lot of tuition along the way. Learning to be confident in your own palate is something that's very hard for many people (myself included) to do.

By the way, if you have good local vendors, I think it's important to support them. Buying tea online is great and all, and sometimes it's the only way to get something you're looking for, but it usually involves a lot of mistakes, misunderstandings, trial and error. You can save a lot of money by trying a tea before you buy it, brewed by someone who (hopefully) knows what they're doing. This will give you some idea of the tea's potential, though it can be a little misleading if the brewer is *too* skilled (make sure they use boiling water and porcelain or glass when you're trying the teas).

Unfortunately I don't have any local vendors at least I have no conscience ordering online, but it would be nice to go face to face with my supplier and try out a few brews with them!

I shall get that experience in 2 months time when I visit Malaysia

[Herb_Master]

Regardless of tea quality the skillful brewing can prevent the sort of bitterness you describe. I bet there is a way to brew this tea that avoids it. Find it!

Thanks, I will keep trying. I have read that post of Stephane's before, usually he posts the ones more interesting to me in French only

[Ritva]

Immediately I began to recall Tim's warning - in - How do you brew your phoenix Dan Cong?

You can taste it if you had enough bad tea imo. The first steeping will usually overpowering fragrant and will turn to immediate bitterness after the 3rd, leaving your mouth dry and uncomfortable.

It was not too astringent so I was able to persevere and the fragranxce was there even after 7 infusions.

Just a short comment about DTH Dan Congs:
After Tim's warning about some Dan Congs being scented I wrote to DTH and asked about their DCs. This is what Gordon replied when I asked if their Dan Congs are completely natural:
"That is right, no additives is added to the tea, it is 100%
natural. We give names of differernt flavours due to its nature."

[Herb_Master]

Immediately I began to recall Tim's warning - in - How do you brew your phoenix Dan Cong?

You can taste it if you had enough bad tea imo. The first steeping will usually overpowering fragrant and will turn to immediate bitterness after the 3rd, leaving your mouth dry and uncomfortable.

It was not too astringent so I was able to persevere and the fragranxce was there even after 7 infusions.

Just a short comment about DTH Dan Congs:
After Tim's warning about some Dan Congs being scented I wrote to DTH and asked about their DCs. This is what Gordon replied when I asked if their Dan Congs are completely natural:
"That is right, no additives is added to the tea, it is 100%
natural. We give names of differernt flavours due to its nature."

You have to be careful about which question you are asking.

The difference between scented and natural can be achieved either by for instance in the case of Magnolia
1. Adding Magnolia flowers to the packaged tea
2. Having Magnolia Flowers in the proximity of the Tea Leaves during the stages of tea making but removing them before the tea is packaged for sale
3. Having Magnolia Trees growing alongside the Yu Lan Tea Bushes.

The wording of your question probably allowed Gordon to truthfully answer that it was not scenario 1. above.

However what Tim was alluding to was scenario 3 with young immature Yu Lan bushes - where the tea leaves in such proximity to the blossoms whilst growing take on the perfume, but are so young that their leaves do not yet produce great tea.

[Herb_Master]

[Ritva]

Immediately I began to recall Tim's warning - in - How do you brew your phoenix Dan Cong?

You can taste it if you had enough bad tea imo. The first steeping will usually overpowering fragrant and will turn to immediate bitterness after the 3rd, leaving your mouth dry and uncomfortable.

It was not too astringent so I was able to persevere and the fragranxce was there even after 7 infusions.

Just a short comment about DTH Dan Congs:
After Tim's warning about some Dan Congs being scented I wrote to DTH and asked about their DCs. This is what Gordon replied when I asked if their Dan Congs are completely natural:
"That is right, no additives is added to the tea, it is 100%
natural. We give names of differernt flavours due to its nature."

You have to be careful about which question you are asking.

The difference between scented and natural can be achieved either by for instance in the case of Magnolia
1. Adding Magnolia flowers to the packaged tea
2. Having Magnolia Flowers in the proximity of the Tea Leaves during the stages of tea making but removing them before the tea is packaged for sale
3. Having Magnolia Trees growing alongside the Yu Lan Tea Bushes.

The wording of your question probably allowed Gordon to truthfully answer that it was not scenario 1. above.

Actually, I was thinking about the same thing - the wording of my question. I didn't remember the exact wording. I had a copy of Gordon's reply in my private email but that didn't contain my original question (because I sent the question in eBay). Now I came to think that I probably have the question in eBay messages and there I found it.

This is what I asked: "I'd like to ask about your Dan Congs (all your Dan Congs). Is the flavour coming only from the tea plant so that no other flavourings are used?" and he answered: "That is right, no additives is added to the tea, it is 100% natural. We give names of differernt flavours due to its nature."

So I suppose that should rule out scenarios 1 and 2.

Lovely pictures of your Dan Cong set up! Are those tallish ceramic canisters for storing tea leaves? Do they work well, are they air-tight? They are really beautiful. Where did you get them?

[Herb_Master]

Lovely pictures of your Dan Cong set up! Are those tallish ceramic canisters for storing tea leaves? Do they work well, are they air-tight? They are really beautiful. Where did you get them?

Yes - airtight
Silver padded foil round stopper

Unfortunately the supplier (your friend Gordon) had 10 and appears to have sold them all
you could try asking Gordon if he can get any more


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0209036637

scroll down the link to see all the details

[Herb_Master]

Lovely pictures of your Dan Cong set up! Are those tallish ceramic canisters for storing tea leaves? Do they work well, are they air-tight? They are really beautiful. Where did you get them?

you could try asking Gordon if he can get any more

By the way they are not ultra suitable for DanCong the opening is too narrow/small. But excellent for pellet style oolongs!

[Ritva]

Lovely pictures of your Dan Cong set up! Are those tallish ceramic canisters for storing tea leaves? Do they work well, are they air-tight? They are really beautiful. Where did you get them?

you could try asking Gordon if he can get any more

By the way they are not ultra suitable for DanCong the opening is too narrow/small. But excellent for pellet style oolongs!

He seems to have relisted them. They are a bit pricey though, the shipping is almost as much as the canisters. Anyone know any cheaper alternatives? I like the shape, pattern and coloring - especially that they have red.

[Herb_Master]

He seems to have relisted them. They are a bit pricey though, the shipping is almost as much as the canisters. Anyone know any cheaper alternatives? I like the shape, pattern and coloring - especially that they have red.

Yes, I made the mistake on that order of paying for each item as I ordered it!

But if you are ordering several items, and can resist the temptation to pay, order them fairly rapidly. Wait a few hours for Gordon to put up a combined order and the combined shipping fee could be a substantially commuted cost.

Just in case it is not going to be as highly discounted as you want in order for you to make the purchase
[which you would by then have committed to ]
email Gordon first with your concerns and ask him to indicate in advance what the combined shipping would be IF you did place the order!

[Herb_Master]

The teapot is 140 ml from zen8tea

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yixing-ZISHA-Chines ... 240%3A1318