First time with Dong Ding

[richardr2009]

I agree with last post. Mainland China can produce some good quality rolled oolongs, but they cannot come close to the excellent quality of oolongs produced in Taiwan. In fact, I've heard that they imported Taiwanese processors to help them with the production of their tea leaves.

If you are on a budget, you could buy a good quality mainland Chinese rolled oolong. But if you want the best, stick with the Taiwanese high-mountain oolongs.

Besides, "high-mountain" means diff. things in China and Taiwan. I've heard that high-mountain in China is about 700 meter, but 1000 meter minimum in Taiwan.

* * *

Dong Ding mountain is in Nantou. There's a lot of misinformation about Taiwanese high-mountain oolongs as well. I've heard a Shanlinxi farmer say that they don't produce Dong Ding tea on Dong Ding anymore.

Dong Ding from China also is almost always green. Where as in Taiwan it's traditionally baked/roasted to a degree. But they also make them "green" (lightly oxidized).

Besides Floating Leaves in Seattle (which I have heard about, but not bought from), you can also try A Tea Cup Dropped in Portland, Oregon. They have offices in Taiwan too.

[teaguy]

Dong Ding is a mountain in Nantou, and was originally famous for their unique processing methods (their oolongs were oxidized more, and were in the medium roast range). In the 80s, when high mountain tea became very popular, a lot of the dong ding / lugu area growers started producing lighter and lighter roasts to compete. Now, even tea produced on Dong Ding mountain isn't the same - which is quite a shame IMHO.

Also, after the big earthquake hit Nantou in 1999, the quality of of tea from that area dropped off for about 5 years, and is just recently recovering. Another problem is that anyone remotely near that region claims to sell that tea (all tea growing regions of Taiwan have that problem). I once asked a farmer below the Lugu area (at about 300 meters elevation) why he was putting his tea in 'High Mt. Tea' bags. He just shrugged and said, "No one will buy it if I don't." There was also a big scandal here last year - seems someone was bringing in cheap oolong from Mainland China, bagging it up in Taiwan packaging, and selling it back to mainland tourists at HUGE markups!

The real bottom line is, if you feel the quality and taste are worth the price, you're getting a good deal. But it's a real bummer when you can't be sure what you're getting.

I'm also going to raise this question with people I know in the industry here, and will post back if I find out anything useful.

[TIM]

I agree with last post. Mainland China can produce some good quality rolled oolongs, but they cannot come close to the excellent quality of oolongs produced in Taiwan. In fact, I've heard that they imported Taiwanese processors to help them with the production of their tea leaves.

If you are on a budget, you could buy a good quality mainland Chinese rolled oolong. But if you want the best, stick with the Taiwanese high-mountain oolongs.

That's a very bold statement you are making richardr2009.

First, you are comparing lemon to lime. Second, it's a different process even both are rolled Min-nan tea. Finally, doesn't Taiwanese oolong only have a history of 170 something years, while Anxi oolong was developed 400+ years ago?

Making a statement like that makes anyone sounds like bad salesmen or hardcore Nationalists.

[teaguy]

As much as I personally prefer Taiwan oolongs and TKYs, I'll have to back Tim up on that one. Mainland does have some very good oolongs, but they're much different than Taiwan, so it really depends on what you're looking for. 'Dong Ding' oolong only comes from Dong Ding Mt., just as Wu Yi rock teas come from, well, you get the picture.

I've seen (and tasted) some terrible Taiwan oolongs, and price isn't always the best indicator of quality. The more you understand and sample different teas, the better you can judge what makes a good deal for you personally.

Also, a note to skywalker: careful offering samples here - some people may complain about you 'self promoting' yourself and get you in trouble.

[gingkoseto]

I've seen (and tasted) some terrible Taiwan oolongs, and price isn't always the best indicator of quality. The more you understand and sample different teas, the better you can judge what makes a good deal for you personally.

Hi teaguy, I remember once you mentioned that the production of Si Ji Chun in Taiwan has been increasing in recent years while some farmers give up on some "high cost" varietals such as Jin Xuan. Can you tell us more about the situation?

In recent years I found quite a few not so good Dong Ding include significant amount of Si Ji Chun, which makes me suspect this Si Ji Chun situation is largely undermining the Dong Ding average quality. Some older people told me that in old times, the unwritten rule is, if a tea is named Dong Ding or Alishan or any of the specific mountain names, it's supposed to have Qing Xin (green heart) oolong only. But obviously nowadays many Dong Ding and Alishan oolong products are blends of different varietals. It looks like some old trade rules have been abandoned. Is it all because of this over production of si ji chun?

[skywalker]

Also, a note to skywalker: careful offering samples here - some people may complain about you 'self promoting' yourself and get you in trouble.

Thank you for your advice. I has noted that. After all this is not an uncommercial forum. Sorry! I have to stop it.

[tsverrir]

All I get is green vegetable and spinach as the predominant flavor.

Sounds like the tea has gone stale. How long has it's been since it was opened and how do you store it?

[teaguy]

Hey Ginko,

Interesting question. I'll bring it up with those more 'in the know' next week and see what they say. I also wonder if the general economic downturn isn't leading to cutting of corners, over picking tea fields, etc. to keep profit margins up. Sz Ji Chun is bushier, producing more leaf, and they can be picked twice as often as Jin Xuen. A few months ago I ordered some Jin Xuen from a reputable major online source, and we found 4 different types of leaf in it, none of which were Jin Xuen varietal.

Anyway, I'll get back to you.

Hey, skywalker - just noticed you're location is 'formosa'. Interested in sharing a 'hot cuppa' sometime? I'm in Taipei County.

[gingkoseto]

A few months ago I ordered some Jin Xuen from a reputable major online source, and we found 4 different types of leaf in it, none of which were Jin Xuen varietal.

Thanks teaguy! And this mixing blend trend is terrible! So far I haven't seen other leaves in the Jin Xuan I got, but I didn't try to examine every single leaves, so wouldn't notice it even if there were some blends.

An alishan I got this year from a large Asian vendor is blend too. The tea tastes pretty good, but not heavenly good, with its price considered. And it's still a blend, I think it's very much over-priced.

[richardr2009]

I agree with last post. Mainland China can produce some good quality rolled oolongs, but they cannot come close to the excellent quality of oolongs produced in Taiwan. In fact, I've heard that they imported Taiwanese processors to help them with the production of their tea leaves.

If you are on a budget, you could buy a good quality mainland Chinese rolled oolong. But if you want the best, stick with the Taiwanese high-mountain oolongs.

That's a very bold statement you are making richardr2009.

First, you are comparing lemon to lime. Second, it's a different process even both are rolled Min-nan tea. Finally, doesn't Taiwanese oolong only have a history of 170 something years, while Anxi oolong was developed 400+ years ago?

Making a statement like that makes anyone sounds like bad salesmen or hardcore Nationalists.

Where does nationalism come in -- I thought we were about tea.

But look at it the other way. When you want to drink a green tea -- who has the best green teas -- mainland China. Taiwan's don't come close. (Except maybe out of Nantou.)

Ever try a Taiwanese "Biluochun" -- other than the name, it won't stand comparison with medium-grade Biluochun from Suzhou.

Ever try a Taiwanese "Dragon Well" -- same thing. [By the way, I heard the reason they named it this in Taiwan is that Chiang Kai schek [spelling?] really liked mainland China's Dragon Well, but they could not get it in Taiwan after Kuomintang moved to the island. So farmers tried to grow it, process it in Taiwan as best they could.]

Personally, when I wish to drink oolong I prefer Taiwan's (high-mountain and baozhong), and when I wish to drink green, I'll buy from mainland China. In the case of puer and white, they are not made in Taiwan.

You're right about being a bad salesman though. A colleague in recent past called me the worst.

[wyardley]

Personally, when I wish to drink oolong I prefer Taiwan's (high-mountain and baozhong), and when I wish to drink green, I'll buy from mainland China. In the case of puer and white, they are not made in Taiwan.

But that's a big difference to say that you prefer Taiwanese oolongs vs. saying categorically that "[oolongs from mainland China] cannot come close to the excellent quality of oolongs produced in Taiwan".

Just as a couple of examples, I don't think you'll find good dancong produced in Taiwan, or traditional yancha (obviously a lot of Taiwanese teas use the same, or similar cultivars, but they're usually processed differently), and even though Mu Zha "Tieguanyin" can be excellent (debates about whether non-Anxi Tieguanyin is authentic or not aside), whether it's high or low fire, it doesn't really (to me) usually taste the same as mainland Tieguanyin.

I can't personally attest to how common it is, nor do I have direct firsthand knowledge of this, but I have also frequently heard it said that many Taiwanese tea producers add teas from other areas (including Vietnam, mainland China, etc.).

In any event, ultimately, good and bad [oolong] tea is produced in both places. There's a lot of demand for good tea, so people's idea of what tea is good is shaped by not only their personal taste, by but what teas they personally have access to.

I will say that overall, Taiwanese teas seem to look better a lot of the time.

Where does nationalism come in -- I thought we were about tea.

It's almost impossible for it not to enter the picture when you're talking about as complex and nuanced a relationship as the relationship between mainland China and Taiwan. Maybe it's not a big issue for the majority of Westerners who, let's face it, don't spend a lot of time thinking about this issue on the whole. But it's a very complicated situation and it certainly does affect people's feelings on the subject as well as their tea-buying habits.

[Chip]

Big brother lurking ...

[Consilium]

Sounds like the tea has gone stale. How long has it's been since it was opened and how do you store it?

This was my experience from the moment I opened the sealed bag. I store the tea in a resealable bag kept in the oolong chest with activated carbon nearby. I jut think I got some bunk tea.

Consequently, very recently I tried some DD from DTH that was so much better. I definately noticed the heavy florals and a honey/melon taste. Hardly any green flavors in that sample.

[Oni]

I have recieved my teaspring package, of 8 teas, one of them was Dong Ding, i tried it and I like it, the leaves are heavy so put little less than usual, and it needs 25 seconds first infusion after flash rinse, and it lasts a lot, definately a great tea, fruity, strong qi, lasted 8 infusions. This was my third taiwanese oolong, and I am expecting to "climb the mountain", maybe I`ll try Alishan, and Dayuling.
A fellow tealover once said that gyokuro, taiwanese high mountain oolong, and wild puerh are the best teas in the world, the first I have met, only two to go.

[richardr2009]

Finally, doesn't Taiwanese oolong only have a history of 170 something years, while Anxi oolong was developed 400+ years ago?

Speaking specifically about Dong Ding in Taiwan, the tea was introduced there 124 years ago (in 1885), as I understand it.

From Wuyi Mountain, Dong Ding tea sprouts were brought to Taiwan by a fellow named Lin Fengchi (林鳳池). He was returning home from Fuzhou where he had taken the civil service examinations for his province (at that time, Taiwan was part of Fuzhou). Lin Fengchi didn't place as I understand it. The community in Taiwan where Lin Fengchi lived (Dong Ding area) pitched in financially to support his trip to Fuzhou and back. They were very proud of having a candidate from their village. (He may even have gone to Beijing -- it's a question to be investigated whether civil service exams could be taken in provinces or if the candidates had to go to Beijing.)

Returning home he brought with him several small Dong Ding plants (6 I think). At least one still survives today. You can see it growing on a Dong Ding tea farm. (Saw it myself: it's not very big.)