Post #2
We should go back to post 2 in this thread.
It's got the essentials for insightful philosophical discussion.
Consider: tea as an aide to meditation.
Setting (wabi-sabi) plays a role, eh?
Buddhists also employ ritual rhythms and chant, perhaps to similar effect.
It's got the essentials for insightful philosophical discussion.
Consider: tea as an aide to meditation.
Setting (wabi-sabi) plays a role, eh?
Buddhists also employ ritual rhythms and chant, perhaps to similar effect.
Feb 24th, '09, 20:29
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I do find tea as a good aide to meditation. Not in the way that drinking tea provokes me to sit down and meditate but more in the way that tea can be a substitute for sitting down, closing my eyes and doing very little for a bit. As I've alluded to above I see mediation as far more than simply sitting, it can be simply walking, simply talking, simply making tea, simply shaving or simply practicing kung fu. I do think tea is a perfect tool for those who cannot immerse themselves in activity and feel the need to meditate, tea can be a great gateway to meditative immersion in everyday things. I am still in awe of my father, who has not bothered with his mediation or his yoga for over ten years, in the way that he can immerse himself in getting things done. I'm forever taking a step back to contemplate the situation, what if I do this or that next? He simply does it, and manages to keep his being on doing whatever it is he is doing for periods of time that are simply beyond me. My clever contemplation often amounts to little more than trying to find shortcuts whilst he seems committed from the word go to getting it done without any compromise.
I struggle with much of the theoretical side of being that does not translate into my day to day experience of being. I despair when I talk to people who argue until they are blue in the face about the illusion of free will but as soon as the chat is over head back to live their lives with what seems like a complete surrender to the very thing they so strongly disagree with.
The wabi-sabi element of eastern thought was always something I aspired to but found difficult to understand or put into practice until my wife pointed out one day, as I attempted to explain it to her, that I was one of the most wabi sabi people she has ever met. I get excited about going to the dump as it is a treasure trove of things waiting to be liberated from destruction, I'll sneak out at night to plunder stuff people have left for the rubbish pick up and I can't pass a skip without taking a peek. I realize there's more, or less, to wabi-sabi than the joy of one man's trash being another man's treasure and that it may have been more my interpretation of the concept that led to her conclusion. However, I'm not about to deny the part of me that erupts with joy at the unpacking of a shiny new piece of technology, it's worth acknowledging that the pleasure dissipates with time whereas the pleasure of keeping the slightly cracked, misshapen glass pot, that I found in the attic of my house, going increases over time.
I see tea as a great gateway drug for those who identify being more with meditation or philosophical thought than with everyday trivialities. It seems to me that we have taken a step back to be outside of the concept of being so that we can survey it from a vantage point which then makes heading back in with complete immersion rather troublesome.
The idea that the greatest philosophers and taoists are the ones who have never felt the need to take a step back to try and figure out why they are doing what they are doing, they're far too immersed in doing whatever it is they are doing.
I struggle with much of the theoretical side of being that does not translate into my day to day experience of being. I despair when I talk to people who argue until they are blue in the face about the illusion of free will but as soon as the chat is over head back to live their lives with what seems like a complete surrender to the very thing they so strongly disagree with.
The wabi-sabi element of eastern thought was always something I aspired to but found difficult to understand or put into practice until my wife pointed out one day, as I attempted to explain it to her, that I was one of the most wabi sabi people she has ever met. I get excited about going to the dump as it is a treasure trove of things waiting to be liberated from destruction, I'll sneak out at night to plunder stuff people have left for the rubbish pick up and I can't pass a skip without taking a peek. I realize there's more, or less, to wabi-sabi than the joy of one man's trash being another man's treasure and that it may have been more my interpretation of the concept that led to her conclusion. However, I'm not about to deny the part of me that erupts with joy at the unpacking of a shiny new piece of technology, it's worth acknowledging that the pleasure dissipates with time whereas the pleasure of keeping the slightly cracked, misshapen glass pot, that I found in the attic of my house, going increases over time.
I see tea as a great gateway drug for those who identify being more with meditation or philosophical thought than with everyday trivialities. It seems to me that we have taken a step back to be outside of the concept of being so that we can survey it from a vantage point which then makes heading back in with complete immersion rather troublesome.
The idea that the greatest philosophers and taoists are the ones who have never felt the need to take a step back to try and figure out why they are doing what they are doing, they're far too immersed in doing whatever it is they are doing.
You, the thread petitioner, have read the post. That satisfies my intent in providing an explanation of connectivity.
Sufi Islamic practices include alpha-wave inducing music (to induce ecstatic trance), chanting, meditation...
and tea drinking as important social activity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7896943.stm
Sufi and Zen Buddhism.
http://www.ruhaniat.org/readings/SufismZen.php
In depth teachings of Sufism, "The Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan"
http://www.sufimessage.com/
Sufi Islamic practices include alpha-wave inducing music (to induce ecstatic trance), chanting, meditation...
and tea drinking as important social activity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7896943.stm
Sufi and Zen Buddhism.
http://www.ruhaniat.org/readings/SufismZen.php
In depth teachings of Sufism, "The Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan"
http://www.sufimessage.com/
Re: Tea and socialization.
I have to agree this, there are people who benefit from humans, there are people who are bothered by humans, even among tea drinkers, literary men of East. There were actually trends among literary men in China, to hide away from communities and live in mountains.silverneedles wrote:Humans are social because thats how we grow up. leave an animal to grow _alone_ (even without other species) and it will not be so social when placed in a group.Intuit wrote:Humans are social animals. Our brains are hardwired for positive effect from social interaction
Lin Bu, my favorite poet of Song, lived throughout in the mountain of Hangzhou alone, having apricot as a wife and a crane as a son.
Tao Yuan Ming of Dong Jin, China's fav poet, actually fashioned that trend.
Ba Da Shan Ren, painter of Qing, lived as a mute calling himself crazy man, he was Chinese van Gogh.
And many more, so I think a difference is, rather western artist/scholar were hired either to Royal, aristocracy or finance itself.
East's largest branch, taoism/confucianism, actually teach a opposite nature, in regarding 'involving in communities'. Like comparing Li Bai and Tu Fu.
Here's what I see difference from West and East.
Churches are in the villages,
Buddhist/Taoist temples are in the mountains, away from the crowds.
Bible tells, "Human exploits nature",
Laozi said, "Human can never own nature but co-exists"
Taoism warned of human greed, and Chinese still live in mountains.
Have to agree once again, Chairman Mao was reported avid tea drinker..and look what he'd done to his people..Chinese people are rather fooled as knowing, that they still live in equal world, but the world knows, rich men know that they don't.silverneedles wrote:i dont know the proportion of population in china, india, pakistan, afghanistan, russia who are involved in social unrest, but i'm not sure i'd attribute tea, theanine & oxytocin to enabling people to live together. i'm pretty sure "bad" people in tea drinking countries also drink tea, and they still continue to cause damage to their neighbors down the street.
And who fashioned a prostitution in tea houses, who dyed Biluochun with green paint, who cheated western tourists selling trash Puerhs for the price of gold?
And English/Irish are actually no.1 tea drinkers in the world.
I don't know what I'm talking about, just ignore it.
Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social Animals, Not Predators.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/38011.php
The causes of social unrest are complex. In the history of China, they have been linked to climate anomalies, drought and subsequent famine.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/38011.php
The causes of social unrest are complex. In the history of China, they have been linked to climate anomalies, drought and subsequent famine.
Feb 26th, '09, 10:30
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Mar 3rd, '09, 04:40
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I really don't see the need to take Intuit's description as a dismissal; you could even see it as a reinforcement, that it can be proven that tea can help to promote the type of mental state being asked about. It may or may not be a cause, but it certainly can help to facilitate such mental states.
Personally I didn't see Intuit's information as saying that it absolutely creates a specific mental state with everyone that drinks tea, nor trivializing the experience, but rather that if you are wondering about a certain effect then you might want to look at the chemistry for some clues. After all it's not like tea or theanine are a drug that produce specific mental states, and even if it were then it would still vary among individuals. Rather it does have some (relatively mild) physiological effects that could help facilitate certain mental states if you are so inclined; anything else would be beyond the scope of what Intuit was saying. While tea may help facilitate social bonding, for example, it's not going to make two enemies amicable.
For my own two cents I do think that there are other chemicals involved beyond theanine, as theanine is one of the first things to go in aging while this effect is often enhanced in aged teas. Teas from old trees seem to have a greater effect than younger ones as well. With that said, I'm not ready to start talking about qi in any serious fashion, but I definitely believe that there is some things in tea that can give a boost to anyone trying to achieve any type of calm and/or focused mental state - whatever that may be. On a more obvious level it can provide a common focus in social settings, which can do wonders for helping people bond. After all, you don't need to be terribly knowledgeable about tea to appreciate and talk about it, even if your palate isn't fully trained and especially if the tea is providing a new experience for you.
I do think we have to be careful when talking about tea and spirituality, and look at it as a potential tool as Pronisias mentioned. I too often see attempts to paint tea as an inherently spiritual thing and tend to be repelled (for the record, I'm not talking about anyone here). I certainly don't want someone to try to tell me how I should appreciate the tea, unless it has to do with the qualities of the tea itself or its preparation. I can definitely see tea as a great tool for things like meditation and most definitely see it as a fantastic social tool. However, IIRC the Chinese tend to view it a little more practically, as a humble drink that helps to break down social barriers; two people that may not have anything to talk about can come together over tea. Of course being so ingrained in the Chinese culture, the Chinese philosophy on tea is much more complex, such as showing respect or for celebrations, but from what I've seen it is generally seen more practically than a spiritual or aesthetic object, and that's the "philosophy" that I lean to. If you see the potential for tea to enhance something that you are into then that's great - we all have our uses and reasons for drinking tea on a regular basis, but I think it should be kept in the same perspective as any other tool and recognized as a simple, though finely crafted, beverage.
To summarize: my personal opinion is that tea is no more spiritual than a candle, though both are good tools for attaining a spiritual experience for spiritual people. So that is to say that tea drinking is not itself a spiritual experience, however one wishing for spiritual experience may be able to benefit from tea's effects. The fact that theanine is known to make the brain produce more GABA even suggests this
Just like psychedelics, however, you can use it for spiritual purposes but the consumption does not, by any means, guarantee it. I also get the feeling that this is really all Intuit was saying.
Personally I didn't see Intuit's information as saying that it absolutely creates a specific mental state with everyone that drinks tea, nor trivializing the experience, but rather that if you are wondering about a certain effect then you might want to look at the chemistry for some clues. After all it's not like tea or theanine are a drug that produce specific mental states, and even if it were then it would still vary among individuals. Rather it does have some (relatively mild) physiological effects that could help facilitate certain mental states if you are so inclined; anything else would be beyond the scope of what Intuit was saying. While tea may help facilitate social bonding, for example, it's not going to make two enemies amicable.
For my own two cents I do think that there are other chemicals involved beyond theanine, as theanine is one of the first things to go in aging while this effect is often enhanced in aged teas. Teas from old trees seem to have a greater effect than younger ones as well. With that said, I'm not ready to start talking about qi in any serious fashion, but I definitely believe that there is some things in tea that can give a boost to anyone trying to achieve any type of calm and/or focused mental state - whatever that may be. On a more obvious level it can provide a common focus in social settings, which can do wonders for helping people bond. After all, you don't need to be terribly knowledgeable about tea to appreciate and talk about it, even if your palate isn't fully trained and especially if the tea is providing a new experience for you.
I do think we have to be careful when talking about tea and spirituality, and look at it as a potential tool as Pronisias mentioned. I too often see attempts to paint tea as an inherently spiritual thing and tend to be repelled (for the record, I'm not talking about anyone here). I certainly don't want someone to try to tell me how I should appreciate the tea, unless it has to do with the qualities of the tea itself or its preparation. I can definitely see tea as a great tool for things like meditation and most definitely see it as a fantastic social tool. However, IIRC the Chinese tend to view it a little more practically, as a humble drink that helps to break down social barriers; two people that may not have anything to talk about can come together over tea. Of course being so ingrained in the Chinese culture, the Chinese philosophy on tea is much more complex, such as showing respect or for celebrations, but from what I've seen it is generally seen more practically than a spiritual or aesthetic object, and that's the "philosophy" that I lean to. If you see the potential for tea to enhance something that you are into then that's great - we all have our uses and reasons for drinking tea on a regular basis, but I think it should be kept in the same perspective as any other tool and recognized as a simple, though finely crafted, beverage.
To summarize: my personal opinion is that tea is no more spiritual than a candle, though both are good tools for attaining a spiritual experience for spiritual people. So that is to say that tea drinking is not itself a spiritual experience, however one wishing for spiritual experience may be able to benefit from tea's effects. The fact that theanine is known to make the brain produce more GABA even suggests this
Just like psychedelics, however, you can use it for spiritual purposes but the consumption does not, by any means, guarantee it. I also get the feeling that this is really all Intuit was saying. Mar 4th, '09, 22:02
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I just wanted to bring this up because I think that AnthonyA may really get something from this. I actually have his previous book "Zen and the Brain" and I too find it fascinating. My personal view is that it only helps the process to understand some of what's going on biologically. I need to get back to the book, though, because the technical stuff in Zen and the Brain is a bit thick.Proinsias wrote:I'm very, very slowly working my way through Zen Brain Reflections which is by a neuroscientist who has been a practicing Zen Buddhist for a long time, bloody interesting stuff.
On a personal note thanks for bringing this up; I didn't know that he had written a second book on the subject, so I will have to check it out. I've put it on my Amazon wish list for when I finish the first
(Though it may be a while considering how thick the first is, both literally and figuratively.)Spiritual practice rewires the brain, abating anxiety
Researchers find brain differences between believers and non-believers.
http://www.physorg.com/news155404273.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex
"Believing in God can help block anxiety and minimize stress, according to new University of Toronto research that shows distinct brain differences between believers and non-believers."
Daily prayer, adherence to behavioral guidance, regular prayerful meditation practice - these activities tend to improve cognitive function and reinforce impulse behavior controls in most individuals.
Damage to brain impulse-, emotional control and reward centers underlies addiction and antisocial behaviors. A growing body of evidence suggests that ADHD-like condition predisposes adolescents who try smoking, to more easily respond to addictive chemistry of nicotine. Nicotine, through increased brain reward receptor activity, may predispose chronic smokers to faulty risk and reward recognition.
http://www.physorg.com/news155404273.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex
"Believing in God can help block anxiety and minimize stress, according to new University of Toronto research that shows distinct brain differences between believers and non-believers."
Daily prayer, adherence to behavioral guidance, regular prayerful meditation practice - these activities tend to improve cognitive function and reinforce impulse behavior controls in most individuals.
Damage to brain impulse-, emotional control and reward centers underlies addiction and antisocial behaviors. A growing body of evidence suggests that ADHD-like condition predisposes adolescents who try smoking, to more easily respond to addictive chemistry of nicotine. Nicotine, through increased brain reward receptor activity, may predispose chronic smokers to faulty risk and reward recognition.
hey guys, thanks for keeping this thread going despite my lack of participation. I haven't been able to do anything beyond checking the replies when I have a second during the day as I am in the midst of midterm exams. In fact, I'm burning the midnight oil right now in preparation for a test in the morning...I'll be able to participate once spring break comes around.