I might already have several tongs from that period. No trip to hong kong needed. not that I wouldn't like to go.
There is going to be allot more fifteen year plus tea available in ten years time, as the amount of Puerh produced in the past ten years. I some how think your wrong about the Puerh scene moving away from aged stuff. Isnt that the whole point yah know -gets better with age -and all that. Plus i dont know if you have noticed but new stuff is getting more expensive than older stuff. For the price of a new Lbz I can get three ten year old cakes that are quality( Even single mountain ).Old stuff may not be your thing but that doesn't mean it's not plausible for others to be into it.
Re: Official Pu of the day
Practically the only LBZ I've ever had with a notable thick and plump body was the Puersom '11. I've had about 9 banzhangs and 5 explicitly stated LBZ. All but the puersom '11 have blog reviews on the web. If you'd go out and read english language reviews about LBZ that's not new at the time of review, most notably tuochatea.blogspot, you'll find my statements about calmness or mildness to be corroborated. Plenty of reviews about not having many low notes. As a result, I don't find my perception at all controversial.
Next, I find the attitude that you should consider antique teas to be a reference point to be excessively romantic sentiment. People get those tea straight out of Antique Roadshow. 30 year old, 40 year old, and greater, these things are only available to the wealthy, secure, and lucky, in terms of any sort of continuous hobby. It's like expecting any old geeky kid in high school to be able to pick up the head cheerleader. Those expectations are just not very fair, not to the average hobbyist and not to the average tea that could be consumnately enjoyed before 30 years. More than that, it is obvious to expect that the hobby will move away from antique teas as a focus, since only progressively richer and powerful will ever have access to them. And as you see with the Bingdao craze, I think it's safe to expect that teas that probably won't do so well beyond 8-15 years will increase in popularity. Especially since it's completely unreasonable to get exceptional Yiwu these days. I drank XZH '07 Dabaicha today, and it was frankly better than the vast majority of yiwus I have ever had access to. It might be flat, might have no dark depths, but what it does do well, it does very well, and I think people shouldn't have such high expectations or such long windows such that they dismiss a decent JingGu or whatever odd puerh there are, out there.
Of course, not that average people can get an exceptional JingGu anymore (or for anything like a reasonable price).
Ah, and gasninja, ultimately, if this 30y thing is what you want to do, I don't really think you have much of a choice but to get to taipei/hk with a seriously high budget and buy three haocha '96-'03 tongs. You've got that Xiaguan iron cake--that's only a good start! If you've got a decade, then 20 years is possibly makeable. I think the sooner that's done, the better.
Next, I find the attitude that you should consider antique teas to be a reference point to be excessively romantic sentiment. People get those tea straight out of Antique Roadshow. 30 year old, 40 year old, and greater, these things are only available to the wealthy, secure, and lucky, in terms of any sort of continuous hobby. It's like expecting any old geeky kid in high school to be able to pick up the head cheerleader. Those expectations are just not very fair, not to the average hobbyist and not to the average tea that could be consumnately enjoyed before 30 years. More than that, it is obvious to expect that the hobby will move away from antique teas as a focus, since only progressively richer and powerful will ever have access to them. And as you see with the Bingdao craze, I think it's safe to expect that teas that probably won't do so well beyond 8-15 years will increase in popularity. Especially since it's completely unreasonable to get exceptional Yiwu these days. I drank XZH '07 Dabaicha today, and it was frankly better than the vast majority of yiwus I have ever had access to. It might be flat, might have no dark depths, but what it does do well, it does very well, and I think people shouldn't have such high expectations or such long windows such that they dismiss a decent JingGu or whatever odd puerh there are, out there.
Of course, not that average people can get an exceptional JingGu anymore (or for anything like a reasonable price).
Ah, and gasninja, ultimately, if this 30y thing is what you want to do, I don't really think you have much of a choice but to get to taipei/hk with a seriously high budget and buy three haocha '96-'03 tongs. You've got that Xiaguan iron cake--that's only a good start! If you've got a decade, then 20 years is possibly makeable. I think the sooner that's done, the better.
Re: Official Pu of the day
Hmm, whose LBZ have you been drinking? Thin body? Mild? Really?shah82 wrote:How can *anyone* seriously care about what an expensive single estate tea will be like in thirty years? It's not as if you expect the flavors to be so awesome. You just want flavor, body, qi, and good aftertastes. That LBZ tends to be excessively mild is not a problem, so much that it has a thin body, typically. However, there's the qi, and there's the aftertastes. And frankly, we really just don't know how any of this will age, and it's silly to have strong expectations. What we do know is how the premium teas since Zhenchunyahao has aged, and the measuring stick we *can* apply, is how they age in the 5-10yo range. That's why and how I talked about the potential of LBZ to age. Not even to 15 years of age.
Again, I know you don't agree, but the antique teas ARE a reference point. You can argue all you want about different climate, production volumes, etc, and I concur, but the fact is, that stuff is from Yiwu and surrounding mountains, so from a purely terroir standpoint, they do provide a reference point. Just because it's not easy to have access to it doesn't mean it isn't valid.
Re: Official Pu of the day
When I first read what you just said I thought "damn you auto correct." screwing up my posts again. Then I realized I didn't actually type that (havn't had any tea yetDrax wrote:A funny thought just struck me as I read what you said, gasninja, so I couldn't resist this edit of what you said!gasninja EDITED wrote:I think that it may not be the best to judge how a child is going to come out in 5-10 years. At this time in a child's life it seems that there is a lot of activity going on and there is a big chance that everything wont work together as well at this stage as earlier or later.
) But that I could have copied what I wrote out of a cut rate child psychology paper.
Nov 17th 12 2:17 pm
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Re: Official Pu of the day
Yesterday I had a nice 2002 Yi Wu Ancient Spirit from Yunnan Sourcing. Not bad.TIM wrote:I think a lot of the suggestion you quote from others that I am not sure of.shah82 wrote:Well, shouldn't you add to the discussion? Which of my assertions should I not be sure about, anyways?
Puerh aged properly should not fate in any means?
Losing the Terroir or Character of the area due to aging?
Just to name a few.... imho.
"Drink less, but better and longer - make a cult of it, a philosophy." just be more selective.
http://www.smokeshopmag.com/0606/spotlight.htm
Thanks for the link, Tim. This quote also caught my eye:
"Returning to Switzerland, Zino’s mission was to dedicate himself to the Havana puro, reinventing the experience in Europe by installing an environmentally-controlled storage room in the family’s shop - the first in the world and the forerunner of today’s humidor. Zino’s family had considerable doubts, but Zino never regretted his pursuit, as his store slowly earned the reputation as the premier site for Havana cigars."
So. He was recreating conditions he knew from Cuba. My take is we are trying to approximate storage conditions in HK.
Nov 17th 12 12:57 pm
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Re: Official Pu of the day
A funny thought just struck me as I read what you said, gasninja, so I couldn't resist this edit of what you said!gasninja EDITED wrote:I think that it may not be the best to judge how a child is going to come out in 5-10 years. At this time in a child's life it seems that there is a lot of activity going on and there is a big chance that everything wont work together as well at this stage as earlier or later.
Re: Official Pu of the day
I've thought that I could taste Bulang characteristics in a 70s Puerh I drink regularly.
I think that it may not be the best to judge how a tea is going to come out in 5-10 years. At this time in a teas life it seems that there is a lot of activity going on and there is a big chance that everything wont work together as well at this stage as earlier or later.
I think that it may not be the best to judge how a tea is going to come out in 5-10 years. At this time in a teas life it seems that there is a lot of activity going on and there is a big chance that everything wont work together as well at this stage as earlier or later.
Re: Official Pu of the day
I think a lot of the suggestion you quote from others that I am not sure of.shah82 wrote:Well, shouldn't you add to the discussion? Which of my assertions should I not be sure about, anyways?
Puerh aged properly should not fate in any means?
Losing the Terroir or Character of the area due to aging?
Just to name a few.... imho.
"Drink less, but better and longer - make a cult of it, a philosophy." just be more selective.
http://www.smokeshopmag.com/0606/spotlight.htm
Re: Official Pu of the day
Well, shouldn't you add to the discussion? Which of my assertions should I not be sure about, anyways?
Re: Official Pu of the day
This is what I've read, from multiple sources. I'm not sure, however, that anyone could contradict me very much. Isn't the latest reasonably and commonly available aged big tree puerh the early '80s proto-8582? Could you tell, much at all, what area that tea came from, those of you that have had it? Those of you that have had 70s sheng, could you tell where any of that tea came from?
Personally, I can't tell all that specifically where reasonably new tea came from. I can tell Banna from Mengku/Jinggu/ and from Jingmai. If this was so easy, do you think Dan Kunmu could stir up a controversy about a recent set of 99-00 Big Green Tree teas by saying they are actually from Nannuo and not Yiwu? Sanhetang and the shops they supply tea to have a really remarkable tendency to have pretty big differences in where something came from. The '07 Huangshanlin has 3 different areas cited as to where it's from in three different shops (and of course, there is no initial statement as such in the XZH blog). The '07 Yuanshilin is even worse. More than that, let's not forget about all the fakery that goes on with Yiwu and Banzhang teas. With an experienced tastebud, I suppose one could tell where some tea is from, especially when young. However, about the only place I can tell for sure a 90s tea is from a certain place is Lincang, largely for the distinctive sourness it can have.
How can *anyone* seriously care about what an expensive single estate tea will be like in thirty years? It's not as if you expect the flavors to be so awesome. You just want flavor, body, qi, and good aftertastes. That LBZ tends to be excessively mild is not a problem, so much that it has a thin body, typically. However, there's the qi, and there's the aftertastes. And frankly, we really just don't know how any of this will age, and it's silly to have strong expectations. What we do know is how the premium teas since Zhenchunyahao has aged, and the measuring stick we *can* apply, is how they age in the 5-10yo range. That's why and how I talked about the potential of LBZ to age. Not even to 15 years of age.
Personally, I can't tell all that specifically where reasonably new tea came from. I can tell Banna from Mengku/Jinggu/ and from Jingmai. If this was so easy, do you think Dan Kunmu could stir up a controversy about a recent set of 99-00 Big Green Tree teas by saying they are actually from Nannuo and not Yiwu? Sanhetang and the shops they supply tea to have a really remarkable tendency to have pretty big differences in where something came from. The '07 Huangshanlin has 3 different areas cited as to where it's from in three different shops (and of course, there is no initial statement as such in the XZH blog). The '07 Yuanshilin is even worse. More than that, let's not forget about all the fakery that goes on with Yiwu and Banzhang teas. With an experienced tastebud, I suppose one could tell where some tea is from, especially when young. However, about the only place I can tell for sure a 90s tea is from a certain place is Lincang, largely for the distinctive sourness it can have.
How can *anyone* seriously care about what an expensive single estate tea will be like in thirty years? It's not as if you expect the flavors to be so awesome. You just want flavor, body, qi, and good aftertastes. That LBZ tends to be excessively mild is not a problem, so much that it has a thin body, typically. However, there's the qi, and there's the aftertastes. And frankly, we really just don't know how any of this will age, and it's silly to have strong expectations. What we do know is how the premium teas since Zhenchunyahao has aged, and the measuring stick we *can* apply, is how they age in the 5-10yo range. That's why and how I talked about the potential of LBZ to age. Not even to 15 years of age.
Re: Official Pu of the day
How do you know this? I wonder,shah82 wrote:Lastly, by the time a puerh tea gets older than 30 years old (with reasonable humidity), it starts losing any specific connection to where it's from.
wyardly wrote:can you give us some examples of aged cakes (let's say, > 30 years) you've tried made of pure [insert place here] material?
Re: Official Pu of the day
No.
And I think I'd like to say this:
Puerh tea ain't going to be about 30yo tea. Nobody but hooked up people gets to drink any of that stuff that aren't leftovers. Only rich and secure people can afford to have a view of the hobby greater than about 10 years. Lastly, by the time a puerh tea gets older than 30 years old (with reasonable humidity), it starts losing any specific connection to where it's from.
This is why it's stupid to be antagonistic to Jinggu teas, or Mengku teas or whatever. The fact that they don't age well in the super-long term gets less and less important as fewer and fewer normal people consider aged (15y+) tea as part of their hobby.
And I think I'd like to say this:
Puerh tea ain't going to be about 30yo tea. Nobody but hooked up people gets to drink any of that stuff that aren't leftovers. Only rich and secure people can afford to have a view of the hobby greater than about 10 years. Lastly, by the time a puerh tea gets older than 30 years old (with reasonable humidity), it starts losing any specific connection to where it's from.
This is why it's stupid to be antagonistic to Jinggu teas, or Mengku teas or whatever. The fact that they don't age well in the super-long term gets less and less important as fewer and fewer normal people consider aged (15y+) tea as part of their hobby.
Re: Official Pu of the day
So can you give us some examples of aged cakes (let's say, > 30 years) you've tried made of pure lao banzhang material?shah82 wrote: Again, as I've noted elsewheres, LBZ does NOT evolve to amazing aged teas with deep depths and all. They age into teas that you'd appreciate somewhat similarly to Bingdao (AFAIK).
Re: Official Pu of the day
What behavior, precisely, indicates poor storage?
Again, as I've noted elsewheres, LBZ does NOT evolve to amazing aged teas with deep depths and all. They age into teas that you'd appreciate somewhat similarly to Bingdao (AFAIK). Soft, sweet flavors, with subtle notes and good aromas. The best part being the way that original huge huigan ages into some pretty unique. And the qi, of course. One added complication is that the area is pretty genetically diverse, with at least four types of trees. I think for the '06, XZH really stuck to one type, when most people blended to produce a standard LBZ effect.
LBZ was a pretty good example for people arguing against the idea of single area puerhs. Blended, it was a critical part of pushing an essential livelyness and power to a number of late '90s and very early 2k teas. By itself, however, it's too strong (a big reason why a number of people in E Asia likes Kuzhushan JingGu teas is because those have a similar power in throat without knocking their bodies silly), it's fairly one dimensional without a whole lotta body to it, etc, etc, etc... That doesn't mean that the '97 Old Tree Round Cake doesn't win in tastes tests pretty regularly (and I've read that it's not stunning on top taste, either). Personally, I've grown to really like aged Banzhang area teas, taken for what it is. However, of the teas that I own now, the '05 Dayi Mengsong Peacock is the *only* tea that's obviously aging to any notion of a traditional aged tasting tea. The '03 Bulang Jing Pin, which I think is a Banzhang, almost is like that, but not quite.
One last thing to say...I suspect that the cake from which Biohorn got a sample of, was one of those that was sold out a long time ago, and resold to Houde. Which is one reason I wanted to know specifically the fault from the storage.
Again, as I've noted elsewheres, LBZ does NOT evolve to amazing aged teas with deep depths and all. They age into teas that you'd appreciate somewhat similarly to Bingdao (AFAIK). Soft, sweet flavors, with subtle notes and good aromas. The best part being the way that original huge huigan ages into some pretty unique. And the qi, of course. One added complication is that the area is pretty genetically diverse, with at least four types of trees. I think for the '06, XZH really stuck to one type, when most people blended to produce a standard LBZ effect.
LBZ was a pretty good example for people arguing against the idea of single area puerhs. Blended, it was a critical part of pushing an essential livelyness and power to a number of late '90s and very early 2k teas. By itself, however, it's too strong (a big reason why a number of people in E Asia likes Kuzhushan JingGu teas is because those have a similar power in throat without knocking their bodies silly), it's fairly one dimensional without a whole lotta body to it, etc, etc, etc... That doesn't mean that the '97 Old Tree Round Cake doesn't win in tastes tests pretty regularly (and I've read that it's not stunning on top taste, either). Personally, I've grown to really like aged Banzhang area teas, taken for what it is. However, of the teas that I own now, the '05 Dayi Mengsong Peacock is the *only* tea that's obviously aging to any notion of a traditional aged tasting tea. The '03 Bulang Jing Pin, which I think is a Banzhang, almost is like that, but not quite.
One last thing to say...I suspect that the cake from which Biohorn got a sample of, was one of those that was sold out a long time ago, and resold to Houde. Which is one reason I wanted to know specifically the fault from the storage.