Ivory, really?

[theredbaron]

And if all the elephants are killed to satisfy short-term demand for ivory today tomorrow people will have to get used to using resin lids on chaire anyway. Or people won't because you already have ivory, who cares if people in the future won't be so lucky and a keystone species which is important for the integrity of the ecosystem in which it inhabits is gone?

All I see is short-term selfish greed in the illegal ivory trade. Get your ivory quick before it's gone!

There are alternatives but really being sure that you're getting ethically harvested ivory is hard unless you're close to the source like in theredbaron's example.

I can agree with that. That is why i am personally more than reluctant to buy a Chaire with an ivory lid. But i do not condemn people that do.

I just believe that when people feel so strong on a particular issue that they decide to become an activists, they should first educate themselves sufficiently, and then try to find sustainable solutions. We have seen too many attempts of activism by people driven by emotion that resulted in the end in the opposite they aimed to achieve.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

[jayinhk]

I actually only eat sardines...lower on the food chain, so less pollutants in their tissues and they are still abundant.

What do you propose as a solution to the ivory situation redbaron?

[theredbaron]

I actually only eat sardines...lower on the food chain, so less pollutants in their tissues and they are still abundant.

What do you propose as a solution to the ivory situation redbaron?

Please go through the posts of the last pages. In short - through regulations and control mechanisms create, enable and improve a legal market from sustainable ivory - such as mammoth ivory, recycled antique ivory, ivory of elephant carcasses who died of natural causes, ivory tusks confiscated from poachers, and ivory from controlled hunting of populations of areas that have recuperated.
Build awareness under craftsmen to use such legal ivory instead of sourcing from the illegal market, and give incentives such as lower or subsidized prize structures for wholesale of legal ivory, so that other than legal repercussions from sourcing in illegal markets simple economics will convince them that the legal market is the better option.

This will also destroy the prizing structures for the illegal market. But further poverty reducing measures are needed in the countries of origin. Legal repercussions alone are no solution, and can only be part of a package.

This is difficult enough, but far more realistic than a simple minded do-gooder approach of "just ban it" - which anyhow cannot be enforced, as the past decades have proven quite obviously.

[entropyembrace]

I actually only eat sardines...lower on the food chain, so less pollutants in their tissues and they are still abundant.

What do you propose as a solution to the ivory situation redbaron?

Please go through the posts of the last pages. In short - through regulations and control mechanisms create, enable and improve a legal market from sustainable ivory - such as mammoth ivory, recycled antique ivory, ivory of elephant carcasses who died of natural causes, ivory tusks confiscated from poachers, and ivory from controlled hunting of populations of areas that have recuperated.
Build awareness under craftsmen to use such legal ivory instead of sourcing from the legal market, and give incentives such as lower or subsidized prize structures for wholesale of legal ivory, so that other than legal repercussions from sourcing in illegal markets simple economics will convince them that the legal market is the better option.

This will also destroy the prizing structures for the illegal market. But further poverty reducing measures are needed in the countries of origin. Legal repercussions alone are no solution, and can only be part of a package.

This is difficult enough, but far more realistic than a simple minded do-gooder approach of "just ban it" - which anyhow cannot be enforced, as the past decades have proven quite obviously.

Thanks redbaron I agree with a lot of what you've said here and I think you've written it very clearly

[theredbaron]

Thanks redbaron I agree with a lot of what you've said here and I think you've written it very clearly

Thank you

[demonyc]

An interesting discussion, friends. I had no idea that ivory was such an integral component of chadougu, so this topic is really quite shocking to me I find that I have an immediate gut reaction of revulsion and disgust when I think of all of the illegal poaching activities that go on and the endangered status of elephants. I'm enough of a realist to understand that blanket bans are definitely not the way vis-à-vis the oh-so-successful War on Drugs (lol ). An integrated approach such as the red baron suggests promises the best results, but also a true nightmare of implementation (not to mention even coming up with workable poverty-fighting measures in the first place). Something does need to happen, though.

[.m.]

I agree with a lot of the wise words that have been said above. However legalizing ethical ivory is nevertheless a tricky problem. Advocating the notion that there is nothing wrong with ivory per se, that it is just the poaching and illegal trade that is bad, may just create even more demand, while the sources of ethical ivory are quite limited. From this point of view I believe that the use of ivory (ethical or not) needs to be socially stigmatized. These are also points where an analogy with war on drugs fails: e.g. nobody really thinks that using heroin is ok. (Of course, the war on cannabis is just a total non-sense).

[theredbaron]

I agree with a lot of the wise words that have been said above. However legalizing ethical ivory is nevertheless a tricky problem. Advocating the notion that there is nothing wrong with ivory per se, that it is just the poaching and illegal trade that is bad, may just create even more demand, while the sources of ethical ivory are quite limited. From this point of view I believe that the use of ivory (ethical or not) needs to be socially stigmatized. These are also points where an analogy with war on drugs fails: e.g. nobody really thinks that using heroin is ok. (Of course, the war on cannabis is just a total non-sense).

Socially stigmatized my arse (excuse my french, please) - i am capable to decide for myself what i like and what not. Ivory is an incredibly beautiful material, and stunning works of art have been, and are, created from ivory. At the same time, when you try to impose your will on cultures that love and use ivory, you will just re-enforce the stereotype of the ugly American (even if one is not an American, but many put us white people into the same box), who walks around the world like an elephant in a china shop, disregarding and disrespecting other cultures.
Give people an option, come to an understanding, a compromise, and don't just tell them how they should live their life.

As to increased demand - that will only increase end prices, and with a controlled/subsidized whole sale prize will put more money into the hand of craftsmen.

Of course, implementation of something like this is a nightmare, and won't be perfect, but it would be a step in the right direction.

A ban has not worked. Every time a white Caucasian enraged citizen will tell China (or Japan) that ivory is to be socially stigmatized, China (or Japan) will feel trampled upon by what they perceive as (at times not without reason) our feelings of superiority towards them, and lift the middle finger and tell us to eff off, their own feelings of national and racial pride suppressing common sense. And of course the notoriously neglected African will uselessly shout that he's still hungry.

And thus the circle of idiocy continues.

Why not work towards a compromise that accepts and respects different cultural values and customs, and saves elephants from extinction at the same time?

[wert]

We can't save the elephants.
In fact, we are their number 1 enemy. They have no natural predator except man.

Even we get rid of all humans, the elephants would eventually die out. The destiny of elephants could not by controlled by man. Even if you don't buy/use/appreciate ivory, by your very existence, you are in some way providing some sort of services and supporting the lifestyle of other humans who do. Elephants and other animals are on the clock as humans continued to develop and multiple. No amount of guilt trips or wistful thinking is going to change it. It is either them or us.

I think it is better to focus on efforts to clone elephants or create some new materials that could be as interesting as ivory.

[.m.]

I agree with a lot of the wise words that have been said above. However legalizing ethical ivory is nevertheless a tricky problem. Advocating the notion that there is nothing wrong with ivory per se, that it is just the poaching and illegal trade that is bad, may just create even more demand, while the sources of ethical ivory are quite limited. From this point of view I believe that the use of ivory (ethical or not) needs to be socially stigmatized. These are also points where an analogy with war on drugs fails: e.g. nobody really thinks that using heroin is ok. (Of course, the war on cannabis is just a total non-sense).

Socially stigmatized my arse (excuse my french, please) - i am capable to decide for myself what i like and what not. Ivory is an incredibly beautiful material, and stunning works of art have been, and are, created from ivory. At the same time, when you try to impose your will on cultures that love and use ivory, you will just re-enforce the stereotype of the ugly American (even if one is not an American, but many put us white people into the same box), who walks around the world like an elephant in a china shop, disregarding and disrespecting other cultures.
Give people an option, come to an understanding, a compromise, and don't just tell them how they should live their life.

As to increased demand - that will only increase end prices, and with a controlled/subsidized whole sale prize will put more money into the hand of craftsmen.

Of course, implementation of something like this is a nightmare, and won't be perfect, but it would be a step in the right direction.

A ban has not worked. Every time a white Caucasian enraged citizen will tell China (or Japan) that ivory is to be socially stigmatized, China (or Japan) will feel trampled upon by what they perceive as (at times not without reason) our feelings of superiority towards them, and lift the middle finger and tell us to eff off, their own feelings of national and racial pride suppressing common sense. And of course the notoriously neglected African will uselessly shout that he's still hungry.

And thus the circle of idiocy continues.

Why not work towards a compromise that accepts and respects different cultural values and customs, and saves elephants from extinction at the same time?

I'm not trying to impose my will (supposing I have any) on anybody, nor to judge or criticize cultures. i'm certainly not claiming any superiority of anybody, nor am i telling anybody what to do. I was simply commenting on some problematical aspects of an "ethical trade".

[Chip]

Actually, redbaron, you keep implying that I call for a complete ban on ivory, I do not believe I have posted this. I am not sure how I feel on that.

Ethical trade of ivory is a bigger nightmare than we could possibly imagine. It would be so abused through corruption and greed. It would never work.

Redbaron, I believe you mention the price of ivory being driven by demand, so how could prices possibly be reduced as incentives unless supply is increased. They are already killing 34000 elephants a year for ivory. The demand is insatiable.

Never ever would I support the use of confiscated, poached ivory.

[Chip]

Bottom line ... IMHO ...

I believe the killing of any animal for tusks used for trinkets and the like only while allowing the remainder to rot unused is wrong. I do not care how the animal is "harvested" or killed or poached.

If they use the vast percentage of the animal for food and other uses, my objections decrease significantly. However whether a species is endangered is always going to be a remaining factor.

But sadly poachers will always abuse the system ... this I am sure of.

You can agree or disagree with these beliefs, I really do not care.

[theredbaron]

Actually, redbaron, you keep implying that I call for a complete ban on ivory, I do not believe I have posted this. I am not sure how I feel on that.

Ethical trade of ivory is a bigger nightmare than we could possibly imagine. It would be so abused through corruption and greed. It would never work.

Redbaron, I believe you mention the price of ivory being driven by demand, so how could prices possibly be reduced as incentives unless supply is increased. They are already killing 34000 elephants a year for ivory. The demand is insatiable.

Never ever would I support the use of confiscated, poached ivory.

How could prices of legal ivory be reduced?

Very simple - via subsidies for legal and sustainable ivory. Subsidies are a very common procedure through which a state can regulate markets, when necessary. That is very common, for example, to protect farming sectors, etc.

Never would you "support the use of confiscated, poached ivory"... and yet again, emotion takes over a rational debate. The sale in legal markets of confiscated ivory can finance a lot of anti-poaching activities, can pay salaries of game wardens, etc.
The burning of confiscated ivory, which happens so often, may make great publicity, but is a complete waste and utterly stupid.

Corruption and greed? Yes, of course that will happen. But at least there would be attempts to introduce regulations, while right now it is nothing but corruption.

[theredbaron]

Bottom line ... IMHO ...



You can agree or disagree with these beliefs, I really do not care.

I am sorry, but belief belongs into the church. If you want to do something about issues such as the illegal ivory trade then it's about education on the issue at hand, in the first place.

[hopeofdawn]

There's been a lot said that is more and better than I could ever write. That said--I'm in 100% agreement with Chip. This is not an 'American' thing. This is a human thing. There is no way to distinguish legal from illegal ivory, once it's been processed, and a large number of crime syndicates and corrupt governments around the world that are all too happy to obfuscate ALL ivory's origins to increase their profit margins.

Elephants are not being killed for their meat. They are not even (currently) being culled due to overpopulation, or being killed due to endangering human activities, even those that enroach on elephant habitat. These endangered, highly intelligent, highly social (to the point of generational disruptions after culls and the loss of matriarchs), and unique animals are being driven to extinction for toys. For trinkets and jewelry used as status symbols. Cultural heritage is all well and good, but no one ever died for the lack of an ivory statuette or an ivory lid on a chaire. Yet we're willing to drive an entire to species to extinction to have them?

Maybe Chip is overzealous. I'd rather see his attitude than the 'well, there's nothing we can do about it, so why even try?' attitude I've seen from some others. And yes, I also believe this applies to endangered hardwoods, overfished species, endangered habitats, etcetera. What it comes down to the individual is whether you're going to stay in your comfort zone--or whether you're going to find a better way. Such as actively condemning any sellers or users of ivory, and using social pressure to reduce the demand.

/end environmental rant