Ivory, really?

[hopeofdawn]

Also, a good article about the pros and cons of those 'ethical' culls: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... lange-text

[Evan Draper]

I think it is better to focus on efforts to clone elephants or create some new materials that could be as interesting as ivory.

I have genetically engineered my housecats, and upon their demise, I will offer reduced-cost chaire to teachat participants made from their foot-long tusks. Until that time, I am accepting donations of sheet metal to reinforce the sofa, and my shins.

[Chip]

Bottom line ... IMHO ...



You can agree or disagree with these beliefs, I really do not care.

I am sorry, but belief belongs into the church. If you want to do something about issues such as the illegal ivory trade then it's about education on the issue at hand, in the first place.

Ok, now you are just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Given our history, I should have recognized this earlier.

A person can have a belief system aside from "church" ... your comment is absurd and insulting and bordering on harrassment.

Actually, redbaron, you keep implying that I call for a complete ban on ivory, I do not believe I have posted this. I am not sure how I feel on that.

Ethical trade of ivory is a bigger nightmare than we could possibly imagine. It would be so abused through corruption and greed. It would never work.

Redbaron, I believe you mention the price of ivory being driven by demand, so how could prices possibly be reduced as incentives unless supply is increased. They are already killing 34000 elephants a year for ivory. The demand is insatiable.

Never ever would I support the use of confiscated, poached ivory.

How could prices of legal ivory be reduced?

Very simple - via subsidies for legal and sustainable ivory. Subsidies are a very common procedure through which a state can regulate markets, when necessary. That is very common, for example, to protect farming sectors, etc.

Never would you "support the use of confiscated, poached ivory"... and yet again, emotion takes over a rational debate. The sale in legal markets of confiscated ivory can finance a lot of anti-poaching activities, can pay salaries of game wardens, etc.
The burning of confiscated ivory, which happens so often, may make great publicity, but is a complete waste and utterly stupid.

Corruption and greed? Yes, of course that will happen. But at least there would be attempts to introduce regulations, while right now it is nothing but corruption.

Subsidies for ivory of any kind will never happen except maybe in countries that turn a blind eye towards how the ivory was first obtained anyway. But at the source, not bloody likely.

You insult me over and over again. And belittle others comments as well. Now making me out to be an out of control emotional idiot, really? I am an "educated thinker." Yes, I am human, I have "beliefs," "emotions," and believe it or not intelligent thoughts. Not to mention values and morals. To be devoid of emotion would on such an issue would be inhuman ...

Please refrain from making direct insults that serve only as a diversion of the topic and serve no purpose except to inflame.

Again, the use of confiscated, poached ivory has no place in the market place. IMHO. Yes, this is a terrible waste, I agree. But 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Ivory is ... beautiful, maybe. But on an elephant, tusks are mighty, majestic, and beautiful. I could never support the killing of a majestic elephant solely for his tusks. As I already stated, the vast majority of the animal must be utilized, IMHO, or it is just human vanity.

Humans can find something else such as jade. I do not believe ivory can ever be for the masses, it comes at much too high a cost to life.

[kyarazen]

Humans can find something else such as jade. I do not believe ivory can ever be for the masses, it comes at much too high a cost to life.

hehe. maybe one day human teeth will be valuable to apes whom will adorn themselves with it..

jade's tricky too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/world ... .html?_r=0

[theredbaron]

Bottom line ... IMHO ...



You can agree or disagree with these beliefs, I really do not care.

I am sorry, but belief belongs into the church. If you want to do something about issues such as the illegal ivory trade then it's about education on the issue at hand, in the first place.

Ok, now you are just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Given our history, I should have recognized this earlier.

A person can have a belief system aside from "church" ... your comment is absurd and insulting and bordering on harrassment.

Actually, redbaron, you keep implying that I call for a complete ban on ivory, I do not believe I have posted this. I am not sure how I feel on that.

Ethical trade of ivory is a bigger nightmare than we could possibly imagine. It would be so abused through corruption and greed. It would never work.

Redbaron, I believe you mention the price of ivory being driven by demand, so how could prices possibly be reduced as incentives unless supply is increased. They are already killing 34000 elephants a year for ivory. The demand is insatiable.

Never ever would I support the use of confiscated, poached ivory.

How could prices of legal ivory be reduced?

Very simple - via subsidies for legal and sustainable ivory. Subsidies are a very common procedure through which a state can regulate markets, when necessary. That is very common, for example, to protect farming sectors, etc.

Never would you "support the use of confiscated, poached ivory"... and yet again, emotion takes over a rational debate. The sale in legal markets of confiscated ivory can finance a lot of anti-poaching activities, can pay salaries of game wardens, etc.
The burning of confiscated ivory, which happens so often, may make great publicity, but is a complete waste and utterly stupid.

Corruption and greed? Yes, of course that will happen. But at least there would be attempts to introduce regulations, while right now it is nothing but corruption.

Subsidies for ivory of any kind will never happen except maybe in countries that turn a blind eye towards how the ivory was first obtained anyway. But at the source, not bloody likely.

You insult me over and over again. Now making me out to be an out of control emotional idiot, really? I am an "educated thinker." Yes, I am human, I have "beliefs," "emotions," and believe it or not intelligent thoughts. To be devoid of emotion would on such an issue would be inhuman ...

Please refrain from making direct insults that serve only as a diversion of the topic and serve no purpose except to inflame.

Again, the use of confiscated, poached ivory has no place in the market place. IMHO. Yes, this is a terrible waste, I agree. But 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Ivory is ... beautiful, maybe. But on an elephant, tusks are mighty, majestic, and beautiful. I could never support the killing of a majestic elephant solely for his tusks. As I already stated, the vast majority of the animal must be utilized, IMHO, or it is just human vanity.

Humans can find something else such as jade. I do not believe ivory can ever be for the masses, it comes at much too high a cost to life.

That is nice, when you run out of reasonable arguments the moderator hammer is swung. I would suggest to have a look at the tone of your posts, and your use of comments towards me such as "off topic glibberish", "self serving", etc. - you have not exactly been the most polite participant in this debate either. Therefore i would suggest to learn how to take it as you dish it out. Or, in the first place, when starting such a controversial topic, to be prepared that you may get controversy and arguments that disagree with your views.

As you state that you are an educated thinker, i would also suggest to think about your last comment here - the one about jade - and educate yourself under what horrific conditions jade is mined in Burma, and the ethics of that trade, and to what cost of life that comes. Ivory isn't the only problem zone.

But i guess that is about it with my participation in this threat. You quite obviously want an echo chamber in which everyone has to agree with your views, dissent not permitted, and get cranky when such is voiced in a reasonable manner.

[Chip]

Thank you for your comments, rb. But face it, you want to collect ivory, so your comments can easily be interpreted as self serving. And you have repeatedly dished out plenty of off topic ... whatever to divert from the topic or at least lower it's importance ... shall I point out examples.

But your comments on-topic did educate me on the "rational thoughts" of the opposing PoV. For this I sincerely thank you even though I cannot agree.

[Chip]

There's been a lot said that is more and better than I could ever write. That said--I'm in 100% agreement with Chip. This is not an 'American' thing. This is a human thing. There is no way to distinguish legal from illegal ivory, once it's been processed, and a large number of crime syndicates and corrupt governments around the world that are all too happy to obfuscate ALL ivory's origins to increase their profit margins.

Elephants are not being killed for their meat. They are not even (currently) being culled due to overpopulation, or being killed due to endangering human activities, even those that enroach on elephant habitat. These endangered, highly intelligent, highly social (to the point of generational disruptions after culls and the loss of matriarchs), and unique animals are being driven to extinction for toys. For trinkets and jewelry used as status symbols. Cultural heritage is all well and good, but no one ever died for the lack of an ivory statuette or an ivory lid on a chaire. Yet we're willing to drive an entire to species to extinction to have them?

Maybe Chip is overzealous. I'd rather see his attitude than the 'well, there's nothing we can do about it, so why even try?' attitude I've seen from some others. And yes, I also believe this applies to endangered hardwoods, overfished species, endangered habitats, etcetera. What it comes down to the individual is whether you're going to stay in your comfort zone--or whether you're going to find a better way. Such as actively condemning any sellers or users of ivory, and using social pressure to reduce the demand.

/end environmental rant

Thank you for your environmental rant. And for your link. I will be sure to check it out later today!

[theredbaron]

Thank you for your comments, rb. But face it, you want to collect ivory, so your comments can easily be interpreted as self serving. And you have repeatedly dished out plenty of off topic ... whatever to divert from the topic or at least lower it's importance ... shall I point out examples.

But your comments on-topic did educate me on the "rational thoughts" of the opposing PoV. For this I sincerely thank you even though I cannot agree.

Thanks.

One point though - i have pointed that out already: I do not want to collect ivory, neither do i collect ivory. I collect Thai charm amulets, and a few pieces in my collection are made out of ivory or elephant bone (about 1 to 2% of my collection), and those pieces have been sourced locally from a carcass that died of natural causes.
I have the same reservations as you and most here regarding modern ivory and the illegal ivory trade, and therefore stay away from modern ivory of dubious origin (and antique ivory pieces i would be attracted to are so way beyond my means that i don't even think about that).

Any ban on ivory does not personally phase me the slightest. I just believe that the art of ivory carving should not be another lost art. But at the same time i believe (strongly) in protection of elephants, and i also believe that both can be achieved at the same time with a bit of compromise from both sides of the debate.

I am also very much against the use of elephants here in the tourist business. It disgusts me every time i see it. Once, many years ago, during a job i was obliged to ride an elephant, and i did not like myself for having to do this at all. I believe elephants should remain in the wild, and not used for our amusement.

[entropyembrace]

Also, a good article about the pros and cons of those 'ethical' culls: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... lange-text

To clarify what I meant by ethical: I was referring to ivory harvested from animals that died from natural causes. At that point there should not be any ethical problem with harvesting ivory from the skeleton...The same applies to mammoth ivory. Though like I said verification is hard if you're not close to the source and I wouldn't buy any ivory if the source is the least bit dubious.

Beyond that corruption is a huge problem in stopping the hunting of elephants for ivory, and it's not something which is just going to go away. There are very wealthy people who have an insatiable and selfish demand for ivory. There are very poor people in Africa desperate to feed their families who have hunting skills and not much else. Even those charged with enforcing bans on ivory poaching are usually not in a good personal economic situations. Poaching isn't going to go away until this extreme inequality in wealth does.

[entropyembrace]

I think it is better to focus on efforts to clone elephants or create some new materials that could be as interesting as ivory.

I have genetically engineered my housecats, and upon their demise, I will offer reduced-cost chaire to teachat participants made from their foot-long tusks. Until that time, I am accepting donations of sheet metal to reinforce the sofa, and my shins.

lol Evan...

wert...cloning elephants won't solve anything? A cloned animal needs to be implanted in the womb of a surrogate mother and then raised like any other baby animal.

[Chip]

Also, a good article about the pros and cons of those 'ethical' culls: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... lange-text

To clarify what I meant by ethical: I was referring to ivory harvested from animals that died from natural causes. At that point there should not be any ethical problem with harvesting ivory from the skeleton...The same applies to mammoth ivory. Though like I said verification is hard if you're not close to the source and I wouldn't buy any ivory if the source is the least bit dubious.

Yes, this is likely impossible to ... police. Everyone would suddenly be selling ivory harvested from skeletons of elephants or ivory with a beautiful story attached to it ... perhaps making this ivory more expensive? But this is impossible, of course.

As stated earlier by someone, mammoth is quite different in appearance do to its age and fossilization. It generally looks very old. Can this too be faked? I am sure it could be with motivation ... and what better motivation for man than money?!

[entropyembrace]

Yes, this is likely impossible to ... police. Everyone would suddenly be selling ivory harvested from skeletons of elephants or ivory with a beautiful story attached to it ... perhaps making this ivory more expensive? But this is impossible, of course.

Which is why I said that extreme wealth inequality needs to be dealt with. Otherwise corruption will undermine every possible solution.

[Chip]

Yes, this is likely impossible to ... police. Everyone would suddenly be selling ivory harvested from skeletons of elephants or ivory with a beautiful story attached to it ... perhaps making this ivory more expensive? But this is impossible, of course.

Which is why I said that extreme wealth inequality needs to be dealt with. Otherwise corruption will undermine every possible solution.

... but this will not happen until Star Trek The Next Generation era which is a long way off.

[entropyembrace]

Yes, this is likely impossible to ... police. Everyone would suddenly be selling ivory harvested from skeletons of elephants or ivory with a beautiful story attached to it ... perhaps making this ivory more expensive? But this is impossible, of course.

Which is why I said that extreme wealth inequality needs to be dealt with. Otherwise corruption will undermine every possible solution.

... but this will not happen until Star Trek The Next Generation era which is a long way off.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't work on getting there now, even if it will take a very long time.

For now, yes we can avoid buying ivory, or doing business with people selling ivory, but people like you and me are not the ones generating the demand for ivory anyway.

I do think we can do things to help get closer to Star Trek. Even if they are tiny actions alone. For example making scientific information openly available, donating textbooks to schools in developing countries, sending teachers to developing countries to make education more accessible and so on. People need real alternatives to making a decent living if we expect them to say no when they're offered large sums of money (to them at least) to kill elephants. And education is really the key to being able to find ways out of poverty that don't involve destructive and illegal activities like poaching.

edit- about faking mammoth ivory: using PCR it is very easy and inexpensive to determine what species an ivory item came from with a very small physical sample. It isn't actually hard to independently verify with certainty that mammoth ivory is genuine.

[Chip]

Good to know, thanks.

"... make it so!"