Ivory, really?

[hopeofdawn]

At the same time, though, I think we shouldn't underestimate the value of social pressure. Ivory is desirable because it is beautiful and relatively easy to carve, but also because it's a status symbol, just like fur, gold, or gemstones. Make it less desirable by the wealthy, and you reduce demand across all wealth classes (including the middle/lower classes who often strive to emulate the wealthy). I'm reminded of the PETA anti-fur campaigns, that use celebrities and graphic images to teach the public of the misery behind those beautiful fur coats. I'm not a huge PETA fan in general, but it was effective. Of course, now the pendulum is swinging back the other way--people have short memories. But if more wealthy people across the world, especially in the high demand countries, were faced with scorn and disgust when they proudly displayed their ivory knicknacks--well, I think there would be a lot less buying of said knicknacks.

I'm not so fanatical to think there should be a ban on all ivory everywhere forevermore. Personally, I would love to see a utopian future where elephant herds are managed humanely, sustainably, and in balance with human populations, and where their hides, tusks and bones are treasured just as much after their (natural) death as the animals were in life. But right now, I don't think that's possible. Elephants are too endangered, the world is too overpopulated (which leads to humans overrunning elephant habitat), and the market is too lucrative. They've tried loosening the reins before on 'legal ivory', and all it did was lead to an insane increase of poaching. The only way to stop the supply is to end the demand--at least for now.

[kyarazen]

let me try to make ivory in the lab one day..
if i can make bone... i dont think ivory is that bad, except i might not be able to get it down to the same density, but at least close enough to pass the raman

[blairswhitaker]

I keep seeing a lot of people in the USA who are not going to be buying any Ivory, and thats all good and well, but it's not you who drive the market, I mean how many of you even have a chaire with any type of lid? I don't think most of you are chado practitioners, and if your'e concerned about them buying Ivory, how are you going to get the message across?

I mean if I was concerned about someone buying bald eagle feathers (that my family can legally possess, use, and display due to tribal membership) I wouldn't rant to people here in Japan where there is literally no measurable demand for such things.

very few pieces of zoge are ever leaving Japan, so the market here is very much driven from within, and it's not like anyone is specifically collecting the lids, they are a completely functional piece of the chaire and no one collects them outside of people who want to use them in chado (aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

[jayinhk]

The US is a major market for illegal ivory. Popular for a number of uses.

[blairswhitaker]

The US is a major market for illegal ivory. Popular for a number of uses.

care to expound on that, I have not seen much Ivory in the USA, and you can't just walk into stores and buy it like you can in Japan. In fact the only sizable Ivory collection I have ever seen In the USa was that of a private collector who came from Russia and smuggled a very sizable scrimshaw collection into the USA

[jayinhk]

http://m.sfgate.com/science/article/S-F ... 650551.php

[JBaymore]

..........(aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

WOW! Never thought of that. Gold leaf is thin........ but if you accumulate a LOT of gold leaf. Very interesting.

best,

....................john

[blairswhitaker]

yes John, you can find the lids stripped of gold at the markets, and when I inquired as to why It was explained to me that they harvest the gold and then the lid is now a "byproduct". and chaire are actually being slightly upstaged in recent times by the natsume used for all the huge chakai. it seems most people practicing are not holding so many chaji, but hosting large gatherings where the focus is on usucha and multiple sekie's of usucha for the large numbers in attendance. so the price of chaire has "fallen" in very relative terms, while high end natsume are getting more and more expensive.

[Fuut]

..........(aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

WOW! Never thought of that. Gold leaf is thin........ but if you accumulate a LOT of gold leaf. Very interesting.

On this topic, that practice seems (considering shipping costs and other), as effective as soaking computer chips for the gold conductors.. Do people really do the lid thing?

[Chip]

The US is a major market for illegal ivory. Popular for a number of uses.

care to expound on that, I have not seen much Ivory in the USA, and you can't just walk into stores and buy it like you can in Japan. In fact the only sizable Ivory collection I have ever seen In the USa was that of a private collector who came from Russia and smuggled a very sizable scrimshaw collection into the USA

Since creating this topic, I read somewhere that the US is a major offender in the illegal ivory market ... now where did I read that. One report claimed the US was second behind China! I find this hard to believe, although if one includes old ivory ... maybe. I do not know what criteria was being used.

[Chip]

I keep seeing a lot of people in the USA who are not going to be buying any Ivory, and thats all good and well, but it's not you who drive the market, I mean how many of you even have a chaire with any type of lid? I don't think most of you are chado practitioners, and if your'e concerned about them buying Ivory, how are you going to get the message across?

I mean if I was concerned about someone buying bald eagle feathers (that my family can legally possess, use, and display due to tribal membership) I wouldn't rant to people here in Japan where there is literally no measurable demand for such things.

very few pieces of zoge are ever leaving Japan, so the market here is very much driven from within, and it's not like anyone is specifically collecting the lids, they are a completely functional piece of the chaire and no one collects them outside of people who want to use them in chado (aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

I guess it is a matter of making statements wherever one can, even small ...

I will begin notifying vendors I have used in the past for non ivory items, but who sell ivory items. I will politely let them know the reasons for my decision. These are sellers of aftermarket items who focus on selling to the west.

[JBaymore]

I find this hard to believe, although if one includes old ivory ... maybe.

It can't be an "offender" in that regard... because antique ivory is legal (see my post earlier in this thread).

best,

...............john

[Chip]

I find this hard to believe, although if one includes old ivory ... maybe.

It can't be an "offender" in that regard... because antique ivory is legal (see my post earlier in this thread).

best,

...............john

Yes, I did, which I found informative, thanks.

There are a lot of gray areas especially for me. At what point does someone need documentation, is that in order to buy?

[blairswhitaker]

..........(aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

WOW! Never thought of that. Gold leaf is thin........ but if you accumulate a LOT of gold leaf. Very interesting.

On this topic, that practice seems (considering shipping costs and other), as effective as soaking computer chips for the gold conductors.. Do people really do the lid thing?

yes, people do, and there is no shipping cost here in kyoto, people buy them locally for next to nothing, especially from estate sales. it's not a super common practice but some people do it. you can usually tell when you go to the market and someone has a huge pile of lids for sale, and there is not a trace of gold on the bottom. a regular antique lid even one that has been used very heavily will still have small remnants of gold stuck to it.

[William]

..........(aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

WOW! Never thought of that. Gold leaf is thin........ but if you accumulate a LOT of gold leaf. Very interesting.

On this topic, that practice seems (considering shipping costs and other), as effective as soaking computer chips for the gold conductors.. Do people really do the lid thing?

yes, people do, and there is no shipping cost here in kyoto, people buy them locally for next to nothing, especially from estate sales. it's not a super common practice but some people do it. you can usually tell when you go to the market and someone has a huge pile of lids for sale, and there is not a trace of gold on the bottom. a regular antique lid even one that has been used very heavily will still have small remnants of gold stuck to it.

It is really gold?