Imen for the Win!

[ABx]

For those who find that the beauty of DanCong lies in it's fragrance, then the Gaiwan does indeed rule supreme.

For those who find the beauty of DanCong lies in a generous level of layered tastes and textures then a clay teapot produces better results.

...and as time goes on you may encounter the reverse. Of course things like the cups you use, the way you pour water in, and preheating (or not) can have such an affect as well.

As you gain more experience and knowledge of what brings out certain qualities in different teas, you'll probably find yourself tied to certain teaware less and less. You'll also find yourself noticing different aspects of the tea.

Don't get me wrong, herb_master. My comments were directed more at the notion that one "needs" to obtain certain teaware before trying a certain type of tea. That type of acquiring really only serves to take away from the tea, unless what you're really into is just collecting teaware.

Consider the fact that those Chaozhou clay stoves cost around $10 in China, and ask yourself how you could justify the kind of markups seen in the US if you can't convince people that it's worth it.

[Herb_Master]

Consider the fact that those Chaozhou clay stoves cost around $10 in China, and ask yourself how you could justify the kind of markups seen in the US if you can't convince people that it's worth it.

Ah but it is worth it! If it helps to improve the overall experience,
and as you pointed out to me 15 months ago there is so much more than just the tea and the brewing method - there is the person themself and the circumstances surrounding the brewing experience.

That long time ago you encouraged me to note external factors such as Humidity, Temperature and Pressure, and to adjust brewing guidelines in accordance with what my notes revealed - and I still intend to invest in the measuring equipment one day.

But for me a personal state of mind is equally important, if I arrive home stressed out and mechanically make the tea in the same fashion as usual, quickly, expediently but otherwise the same way as normal - I do not find the brew as agreeable as on the occasions that I have been brought to the tea in a more receptive frame of mind.

With only limited use of the Chao Zhou stove so far, I already believe it sets me up for the coming drink, I may calm down if stressed, I may heighten my anticipation if too laid back. The mechanics of brewing are just one part of the whole experience, I like some aspects of some variations of the Gong Fu Tea Ceremony and these when practiced by myself lead me into a spirituality or state of mind that is ready to appreciate the tea.

There will be more occasions that I drink DC without using a CZ Stove than with, but I am more than content with my investment.

Similarly the way one uses a teapot or gaiwan, the pre treatment and control processes can affect the mind and prepare for the drink, as well as effecting the brew.

I was trying to soften the disparity between you and Zanapus on one hand and Oni and Tead_Off on the other, but only seem to have added to the controversy. I still maintain there are different ways of enjoying DC for different people, 'Vive Le Difference"

[Maitre_Tea]

I plan to have an actual comparison between using a gaiwan and the CZ pot, but I can say that they influence the tea in different ways. Imen suggested I try brewing using a gaiwan first, and I'm glad that I followed her suggestion. When I brewed using the gaiwan I felt that the aroma was better and the sensation I had was wonderful, while using the CZ improved the mouth feel/texture of the tea, although the aroma it had while brewing in a gaiwan was slightly diminished...

I'm a little shocked to say this, but I think I prefer brewing CZ with a gaiwan. Of course, this might only be applicable to this particular DC or my brewing technique with this DC is kinda sloppy, but I think that no matter what DC you're brewing I suggest doing a side by side tasting for each one. Maybe one is better for gaiwan, while one is better with a teapot, etc.

Since are as many DC varieties as there are stars (a hyperbole, but somewhat true), I don't think you can apply one brewing method for all DC out there

[Zanaspus]

Ok, I won't shut up since asked, I'll try to expound further on my thoughts. From all of your posts about this forum HerbMaster, it is clear that tea holds a meaning for you not only in a simple taste, but also in ceremony. Yixing clay, presentation cup, aroma cup, waste bowl, charcoal stove, iron boiling vessel, etc. I am not asserting that this is a wrong world view. In some sense I envy all the trappings you have put forth before us, as I would love to be that ceremonial sometimes.

However, we must remember that there are many folks who's tea journey is at a beginning who come here to learn the fundamentals, what one needs to have to make the tea experience transcend that which the god of Lipton has set before many of us in our youth.

I suppose I take umbrage with the word "need." In essence, all one "needs" to enjoy tea is water (yes we could speak volumes about this), a source of heat (ditto) and one or more cups (ditto).

I find that yixing removes angularity in tea. What do I mean? In essence, it makes the square an octogon, the octogon a circle. It removes rough edges that may or may not be gotten rid of with gong fu (in the broadest sense). That being said, sometimes I like sharp angles.

My only fear in all of our ramblings is that we occasionally turn away people who think, "Oh god! If it's this hard, I'll stick with coffee." All the trappings of ceremony can be wonderful, but when all is said and done, tea is pleasure, and there's always more than one way to skin a mule.

[ABx]

Well said, Zanaspus

Just so we don't go too far off track, let's not forget that this is the comment I was responding to:

I am planning to try their Dancongs, but first I need to buy the equipment for it.

I'm not disputing that these things can be worth it to the individual, only that they are necessary in any way. If you want to try Dancong, then do so Just don't think that getting special teaware will improve the tea that much. It may to some degree, but beyond a certain point your returns will diminish (with the exception of collection value).

As you point out, herb_master, there are SO many things that can influence the outcome of a tea - including the weather. Simply focusing on getting to know the leaf and what's needed to bring out the best will yield far superior results than whether your kettle is ceramic, metal, or electric (for example).

Ultimately it does take investment to get the most from a tea, but investing yourself will bring the biggest returns Once again I have to say not to get me wrong, though; I place a good deal of importance on aesthetics myself. I'm also all about experimenting with different teaware to see how it all affects your tea. It's just not necessary to get great results from a tea.

I think that I can actually use you as an example, herb_master - you thoroughly enjoyed Dancong with simple gaiwans and pots. You have surely increased your teaware collection since then, but you didn't feel the need to get these things before trying Dancong.

[ABx]

Since are as many DC varieties as there are stars (a hyperbole, but somewhat true), I don't think you can apply one brewing method for all DC out there

Indeed I think that you could probably group by how oxidized and roasted each one is, but it seems that some can surprise you.

[Tead Off]

Would you choose a glass teapot over a beautiful zisha yixing teapot?

If the tea I'm brewing turns out better in it, then I would choose a Mickey Mouse shaped glass pot over the most aesthetically pleasing yixing in existence

This isn't religion - there are no "initiates." Imen herself states that she uses an eggshell gaiwan. When I have a very expensive dancong, I prefer not to use anything that might change it, and do want something that will accentuate the high, fragrant notes.

If you know how to brew well then you will be able to get more from a tea than the vast majority. If you don't, then no teaware, no matter how "authentic" you think it is, will make up for that.

The bottom line is that you don't need special teaware to brew dancong; knowing how to bring the most out of the leaf will do far more than spending a bundle on supposedly traditional teaware. Beyond a certain point you're just collecting "stuff." If you really want to be "traditional" then grind your tea into powder and brew it similar to matcha

The initiate part was a bit tongue and cheek and I do agree with you that good tea can be brewed in any vessel. But, that doesn't equate the vessels. So, I must stick with my original statement that no glass or gaiwan will give you a better cup of tea than a real yixing teapot if you know what you are doing. This has nothing to do with collecting, but, tasting. For me, the idea of owning a pot is to brew the best tea in it, not to just own it. I am not a collector but a drinker.

[Maitre_Tea]

I have a question Tead Off...does that also include greens as well? I'm not bringing this up to disprove your point or anything, because it actually can work. I'm just curious if you're one of those people who thinks it does.

[ABx]

The initiate part was a bit tongue and cheek and I do agree with you that good tea can be brewed in any vessel. But, that doesn't equate the vessels.

Mine was a double entendre; sticking to the notion that Yixing always creates better results, period, would be dogmatic. A vessel is a vessel - each has its advantages. Yixing is great, and there are many teas which I would only brew in yixing, but there are also some that I find better brewed in other vessels.

Of course with Dancong it is generally recommended to use Chaozhou pots instead of Yixing

Bringing this back to the original point, learning about the leaf with gaiwans and any other teaware you already have will do far more for you than any amount of purchasing. I'm all for exploring the effects of different teaware, but not necessitating teaware purchases before trying a type of tea.

I must stick with my original statement that no glass or gaiwan will give you a better cup of tea than a real yixing teapot if you know what you are doing.

...unless you know what you're doing

Glass is a poor conductor of heat. So it holds all the heat in until it reaches a certain point and then it releases it all at once. You can use that to obvious advantage with certain teas, and some of the best teas I've been served were from glassware (and served by those with multiple decades of experience on me, in situations where a yixing pot would seem an obvious advantage and were readily available).

[ABx]

Ok, I won't shut up since asked, I'll try to expound further on my thoughts. From all of your posts about this forum HerbMaster, it is clear that tea holds a meaning for you not only in a simple taste, but also in ceremony. Yixing clay, presentation cup, aroma cup, waste bowl, charcoal stove, iron boiling vessel, etc. I am not asserting that this is a wrong world view. In some sense I envy all the trappings you have put forth before us, as I would love to be that ceremonial sometimes.

However, we must remember that there are many folks who's tea journey is at a beginning who come here to learn the fundamentals, what one needs to have to make the tea experience transcend that which the god of Lipton has set before many of us in our youth.

I suppose I take umbrage with the word "need." In essence, all one "needs" to enjoy tea is water (yes we could speak volumes about this), a source of heat (ditto) and one or more cups (ditto).

I find that yixing removes angularity in tea. What do I mean? In essence, it makes the square an octogon, the octogon a circle. It removes rough edges that may or may not be gotten rid of with gong fu (in the broadest sense). That being said, sometimes I like sharp angles.

My only fear in all of our ramblings is that we occasionally turn away people who think, "Oh god! If it's this hard, I'll stick with coffee." All the trappings of ceremony can be wonderful, but when all is said and done, tea is pleasure, and there's always more than one way to skin a mule.

Sorry all, but I do feel the need to further this a bit.

We have indeed had people get turned off by this kind of thing in the past, creating something of a rift between those that just want to enjoy tea and the more serious enthusiasts. In that case it was just pressure to brew gongfu style, nevermind the can of worms that is Yixing. That's something that I am guilty of in this thread, but then again this thread is also about comparatively expensive Dancong that probably should be brewed gongfu style.

Keep in mind that getting into Yixing pots early on can be great if you can walk into a store and talk to a vendor with decent wares. I was lucky enough to have just such a vendor. Most that come here, though, will need to spend a not-insignificant amount of time and money to find decent pots. Even ones of quality sold online may be grossly mislabeled in some way (such as size). Even though I had/have a good local shop to go to, I still made several purchases early on that I now regret simply for their size and/or pour time.

[sriracha]

This discussion has made me wonder about the production methods of dan cong teas-are they generally made with fragrance(and, hence gaiwans) in mind, or do the farmers/tea workers and -masters try to bring out the taste as well-knowing that yixings will be used to brew..?

Perhaps it just varies from tea to tea, I know, I'd just like to know if anyone has more info on this. =)

[Tead Off]

I have a question Tead Off...does that also include greens as well? I'm not bringing this up to disprove your point or anything, because it actually can work. I'm just curious if you're one of those people who thinks it does.

I am not a Chinese greens drinker. But, years ago, when I first started, I used to brew longqing in a small, sandy zhuni pot which I can't seem to find. It was fine, but, I didn't know much back then. If I do buy more longqing in the future, I would definitely experiment. I would even cross culturally brew some in Banko and Tokoname after I changed into my kimono and put Kitaro on the stereo. But, not in a gaiwan. I'm a gaiwanophobe.

[entropyembrace]

I brew single bush Dancong in a modest glass pot and drink it from small tea mugs...and you know what? It's wonderful...filling the room with tea perfume and each sip is a clear, bright and refreshing mutlilayered experience as it slides across my palate. Clearly quite superior to the comparatively dull and muddy commercial grade dancongs.

Why am I saying this? Well...I think the leaf is the most important thing and as long as you can give it the water, the space it needs to open and can control how long it brews it's possible to make a divine cup of tea with the best leaf and a little practice.

Sure I want more visually attractive teaware...but when I'm given the choice between a beautiful artistic yixing or beautiful tea leaves cared for by a master...I'll pick the leaves every time. So no, I don't think you need fancy pots or eggshell gaiwans to enjoy Dancong.

[Proinsias]

Thanks for that entropyembrace, beautifully said.

Modest experience leads me to brew lower quality dan cong in a 200ml gaiwan with little leaf and to brew higher quality dan cong in a much smaller pot or gaiwan with more leaf. Some fair better in the pot and some fair better in the gaiwan, as with any other tea I have a pot for.

Damn this thread, I was set on making my next purchase a pu one and now you've made me realise I only have half a bag of cheap dan cong left.

Does anyone have recommendations for great dan cong aside from Imem? I've tried some good stuff from Jing but can't recall any others.

[Tead Off]

I brew single bush Dancong in a modest glass pot and drink it from small tea mugs...and you know what? It's wonderful...filling the room with tea perfume and each sip is a clear, bright and refreshing mutlilayered experience as it slides across my palate. Clearly quite superior to the comparatively dull and muddy commercial grade dancongs.

Why am I saying this? Well...I think the leaf is the most important thing and as long as you can give it the water, the space it needs to open and can control how long it brews it's possible to make a divine cup of tea with the best leaf and a little practice.

Sure I want more visually attractive teaware...but when I'm given the choice between a beautiful artistic yixing or beautiful tea leaves cared for by a master...I'll pick the leaves every time. So no, I don't think you need fancy pots or eggshell gaiwans to enjoy Dancong.

Agreed. But the choice is not between the tea leaves and the teaware. Great tea + great teaware=the best cup you can make. Teaware is like tea leaves, they are not all equal. The better grades of clay and ore give different results as do differently grown and processed Dancong. Low quality dancong is terrible. High quality dancong is great. It's the same comparison. The one variable is the drinker. Some people cannot taste deeply and cannot discern subtleties. This is best illustrated in the wine business where sommeliers and winemakers have the 'nose' that informs them as to what they are drinking. Whey they say this wine is better than that one, there will always be a certain % of drinkers who will not agree with this because we don't all taste in the same way. So, if glass is enough to satisfy, you will save some money and be happy with what you have. Happy drinking.