Boldly going where few have gone before: Gongfu Kyusu!

[Maitre_Tea]

If you want to see how your kyusu influences the taste of tea, use this method (which originally comes from the Tea Gallery): ...

Good thinking. Will have to try that. I wonder if a minute or two is enough to have an effect? I guess I'll find out soon.

Yeah, when I first heard of these instructions I was a little unsure if a minute or two would do it...but it really does though (at least with Yixing). Since tokoname is a denser clay, I would say leave it in there for five minutes just to make sure

[Tead Off]

If you want to see how your kyusu influences the taste of tea, use this method (which originally comes from the Tea Gallery): ...

Good thinking. Will have to try that. I wonder if a minute or two is enough to have an effect? I guess I'll find out soon.

Yeah, when I first heard of these instructions I was a little unsure if a minute or two would do it...but it really does though (at least with Yixing). Since tokoname is a denser clay, I would say leave it in there for five minutes just to make sure

A few seconds will have an effect. No need for such long times as you would want to drink the tea when it's warm.

[tingjunkie]

If it only takes a few seconds, then couldn't we skip the Yixing pots in favor of Yixing cups? It would be much cheaper that way.

[Tead Off]

If it only takes a few seconds, then couldn't we skip the Yixing pots in favor of Yixing cups? It would be much cheaper that way.

I don't understand the question.

[tingjunkie]

Sorry. My question is in response to your statement that making tea in a gaiwan, and then letting that tea sit in a kyusu for only a few seconds, will noticeably change the flavor/profile.

If it only takes a few seconds to change a tea's flavor or other characteristics by letting it sit in a particular type of clay, then couldn't we abandon our lust for pricey Yixing pots, and instead buy a Yixing cup to drink from? A Yixing cup uses less clay, and is far easier to make, and therefore is significantly cheaper than a whole pot. Aside from aesthetics, if taste and aroma was our only concern, would tea from a gaiwan served in a high quality Yixing cup be as good as the same tea made in a Yixing pot then served in porcelain or glass?

(Note: I know this question is subjective and that Yixing is not always the best choice for every oolong or puerh out there, but I'm just trying to get a better handle on how and why certain clays can change the quality of tea.)

[Tead Off]

You are going to get an even better cup if you brew in the yixing. More flavor and aroma than just pouring tea into a yixing cup. But, I am talking about high quality clay, not $40 pots unless you've just bought something that should have been 5 times more. This is where I think many people make the mistake thinking that because a pot is yixing, it must be good. There's a lot of crap yixing out there. You're better off buying a banko kyusu which has been fired in a reduction kiln for $60 than buying a similar priced yixing teapot in most cases. But, these kyusu are not optimal for oolongs. So, just put your foot down (on gaiwans) and save your pennies for some good gear. You'll never know otherwise if what people say is true about good yixing pots.

[tingjunkie]

But, I am talking about high quality clay, not $40 pots unless you've just bought something that should have been 5 times more.

That's exactly why I haven't bought a Yixing pot yet and am trying out my kyusu experiment. Speaking of which... I'm about to go brew up some Dong Ding in my gaiwan. I'll try the faircup to tokoname experiment and see if I can tell any difference. And away we go...

[trent]

If you want to see how your kyusu influences the taste of tea, use this method (which originally comes from the Tea Gallery):

Brew two infusions of tea in a gaiwan and mix it together in a faircup. Pour half of it into your pre-heated kyusu (to account for temperature differences and stuff), and leave the brew in there for about a minute or so. Pour it out into a different faircup/container, and compare the brews.

I really like this method, and can't think of a better one... but it ignores one important variable: heat retention. Anomalies aside, water stays hotter longer in a yixing, and this effects the way flavor is extracted from the leaves.

[tingjunkie]

Ok, just finished my Dong Ding session. I used my gaiwan to brew (1/4 full of dry leaf), then decanted the liqueur into a pyrex glass measuring cup (I figured you can't really find a more neutral material). Half the infusion was then poured into a glazed ceramic cup, the other half was put into the warmed kyusu for about 30 seconds, then poured into a second identical ceramic cup. After an initial 8 second rinse, the infusion times were 25s, 25s, 34s, 40s, 1:00, 1:45.

I did, in fact, notice a difference. The tea from the kyusu was generally more rounded and smooth, had slightly more body (felt a little heavier in the mouth), and the astringency was noticeably tamed down. I would have guessed that the tea from the kyusu would have been less floral, but it was just the opposite! It had a slightly better aroma, and the taste was slightly more floral- it was as if the floral notes had been hiding behind the astringency that was muted. The tea straight from the gaiwan was also floral, but combined with the astringency, it came across as more perfumy, rather than fresh flowers. This was my first time brewing this Dong Ding (from Ito En), and I was a bit disappointed to find that there weren't really any strong fruity notes to be found from either vessel. I thought dong dings were traditionally "peachy?" Perhaps I just need more practice with this one.

Although, after 6 infusions in the gaiwan, the last of which being about 1:45, it seemed the leaves were generally spent. For kicks, I moved the leaves into the kyusu and did a 5 min infusion. The flavors were pretty muted, but it did reveal a ghostly peach finish which had not been there before.

The experimentation shall continue...

[Maitre_Tea]

Interesting, it probably means that the clay has a "rounding" effect on the clay, though the experts out there can dismiss my hypothesis or elaborate on it. I wonder what the firing temperature differences are there between tokoname and yixing?

[tingjunkie]

Interesting, it probably means that the clay has a "rounding" effect on the clay, though the experts out there can dismiss my hypothesis or elaborate on it. I wonder what the firing temperature differences are there between tokoname and yixing?

Interesting indeed! I was initially skeptical of seeing a noticeable difference with this experiment, considering tokoname is supposed to be a denser clay than Yixing. But, is it a pot's density, porosity, or its iron content that has an effect on tea? Is it another mineral or chemical reaction? All of the above? Any experts want to speculate on how my kyusu was fired, given the gradual shift from red to black?

Either way, after seeing a difference with the tokoname, I'm very interested in tracking down a high quality red clay (zhuni or other) Yixing faircup. Anyone know where to find one? More experimentation is needed of course, but I'm already intrigued. Maybe I can just put out some feelers and see if anyone has a broken vintage Yixing pot they want to donate to the cause. I'm sure I can make some kind of pour through filter device out of precious pot shards!

[Maitre_Tea]

Interesting, it probably means that the clay has a "rounding" effect on the clay, though the experts out there can dismiss my hypothesis or elaborate on it. I wonder what the firing temperature differences are there between tokoname and yixing?

Interesting indeed! I was initially skeptical of seeing a noticeable difference with this experiment, considering tokoname is supposed to be a denser clay than Yixing. But, is it a pot's density, porosity, or its iron content that has an effect on tea? Is it another mineral or chemical reaction? All of the above? Any experts want to speculate on how my kyusu was fired, given the gradual shift from red to black?

Either way, after seeing a difference with the tokoname, I'm very interested in tracking down a high quality red clay (zhuni or other) Yixing faircup. Anyone know where to find one? More experimentation is needed of course, but I'm already intrigued. Maybe I can just put out some feelers and see if anyone has a broken vintage Yixing pot they want to donate to the cause. I'm sure I can make some kind of pour through filter device out of precious pot shards!

To be honest, if you're going to spend the money finding a high quality Zhuni fair-cup, maybe you should spend that money on a decently priced Yixing (doesn't have to be Zhuni). I would think that Zhuni fair-cups might be harder to find, and will probably be very expensive, if it's "authentic" Zhuni. I think that finding a broken pot might be your best bet. You don't have to make it into a filtering device...if you can find one with the body still intact, you can use that as a "fair-cup of sorts." Or you can gather a bunch of shards and let it set in your tea like bamboo charcoal. This experiment has peaked my interest too...and I'll be carrying out my own comparison experiments between Tokoname and Yixing. I don't have a Zhuni teapot, but I have a few Zisha/Duan Ni/Purion/CZ clay.

This sounds pretty exciting. Maybe this will lead to a "heretical" movement within TeaChat

[peterliem]

Chen sells a fair cup made of qingshui ni for US$30. I recently bought one and haven't gotten around to using it yet, but from the looks of that and the dicaoqing pot that I bought, their clays are quite beautiful.

[tingjunkie]

This sounds pretty exciting. Maybe this will lead to a "heretical" movement within TeaChat

Like a team of modern cyber Sen No Rikyus, turning the tea world on its head!

Yes, a real zhuni faircup might be expensive, but it should cost maybe half of what a real zhuni pot costs, right? The other idea I had would be to get in touch with Hojo, and see if I can special order a 160ml Sado clay faircup. If the regular Sado pots cost $280, a faircup should only be $120 maybe? I'm no potter, but they should be sooooo much easier to make than a pot, right? Of course, this is all depending on if our experiments continue to have favorable results.

[Maitre_Tea]

Or you can get a nice Yixing teapot from Yunnan Sourcing for around $50.
You're free to spend your money on whatever you want, but IMO, if you're going to invest that much money on a fair-cup...why not make it a teapot?