Tetsubin , new vs. old ?

[Tead Off]

Oni, I must strongly disagree with your statement here. Every single one of my antique tetsubins are under $200, and I can guarantee you they do something to my water. I've done blind taste test with people who have no idea what to expect and the answer is the same.

Price is NOT a good indicator of quality. Just because something is $500 does not mean it's authentic. With antiques, if you know where to look, how to look, and what to look for, you can find relatively cheap things for a great bargain.

The vendors you've linked to all charge at least 200% margin on their wares. Just because you don't have a way to find them for Japanese local prices doesn't mean anything cheaper is definitely fake or bad.

Once again, high price is not a reliable indicator of quality. It will serve you well to remember that.

How do you deal with the rust and scale issues of the antique ones?

[Oni]

Oni, I must strongly disagree with your statement here. Every single one of my antique tetsubins are under $200, and I can guarantee you they do something to my water. I've done blind taste test with people who have no idea what to expect and the answer is the same.

Price is NOT a good indicator of quality. Just because something is $500 does not mean it's authentic. With antiques, if you know where to look, how to look, and what to look for, you can find relatively cheap things for a great bargain.

The vendors you've linked to all charge at least 200% margin on their wares. Just because you don't have a way to find them for Japanese local prices doesn't mean anything cheaper is definitely fake or bad.

Once again, high price is not a reliable indicator of quality. It will serve you well to remember that.

I live far from Asia, the local stores are useless, and these stores are the only online I have seen (and I trust them) to sell new authentic tetsubin. I am not as experienced to know it for sure, and I do not have the money to go wrong so I did a lot of research... I agree with most of these teashops having 200% interest, all but Horaido, I think they sell tetsubin at a good price, the rest are expencieve, www.japantea.hu has a lot of tea ceremony teaware, and a lot of tetsubin from Horaido, the owner is experienced so if he chose horaido as his supplier in such expencieve merchandise, they must offer a good price...
Anyway I chose this tetsubin

It costs 24000 Y, around 240 USD, I think it is a good price for a yamagata tetsubin, and the arare looks good on the picture.
And I think the reason why older tetsubin are cheaper is that older are not as good as new ones when it comes to the quality of the water it produces, thus they decrease in value in time, only the artistic and idealistic value increases.

[zencha]

Some say it's the white mineral build-up inside the vintage tetsubin that's the secret sauce , others say start new and make your own water taste .
Most all vintage will have rust .
I was informed that in Japan some have the interior relined at a foundry.

[zencha]

Pearl River in NYC has some new Iwachu tetsubin .
Here is website for contact purpose only ; tetsubin are not listed .
http://pearlriver.com/v2/index.html
I think they are discounted price and I think you can special order.
Ask for the store manager Mr. Chen .

[zencha]

Sunrise Mart , a Japanese grocery store in East Village NYC has 1 or 2 basic Iwachu tetsubin in stock at times .
Address is listed as:
4 Stuyvesant St., 2nd fl, New York, NY 10003 nr. Third Ave.
212-598-3040

[Tead Off]

Oni,

Several months ago, I had a long conversation with Horaido about their tetsubin. They sent photos to me of a particular kettle I was interested in. Here it is:


Look at the inside which I requested from them:


Does this look unlined to you? I asked them and they said it was unlined. The kettles at the Hojo-God's Temple did not look like this inside. They were a matte gray/black. Maybe it was the effect of the flash but could I be sure?

[Oni]

That is treated with Urushi plant for anti rust, not good at all, Hojo wrote that it reduces the beneficial aspects of the tetsubin.
P.S. Be sure to specify this as a critearia when buying that it should not be treated with this material, but this doesn`t mean that is a fake and emameled tetsubin, many masters use this plant to prolongue the lifetime of their product.

[Intuit]

http://suganokaori.com/urushi.e.html

[MarshalN]

Sorry if I came out a little strong, but my point, Oni, was basically that using price as a criterion for selection is really not a good one, simply because somebody selling an awful, lined tetsubin that's worth $20 can claim it's great and sell for $400.

I am also extremely skeptical of Hojo's claim that only the new ones are good. My personal experiences with more than a dozen tetsubin at various times have shown that is not true at all -- old tetsubins are just as good, if not better, than new ones. I have one that is relatively new (30-40 years old, bought in almost unused condition), and I don't notice any real differences between that and the older, rustier ones I have. In short, I don't think it makes much of a difference at all whether it's old or new.

As for the issues of rust and scales - you can clean it, if it's excessive and affecting the water. Some rust will remain -- it's iron, so it will rust when it reacts with water, no matter what you do.

[Tead Off]

That is treated with Urushi plant for anti rust, not good at all, Hojo wrote that it reduces the beneficial aspects of the tetsubin.
P.S. Be sure to specify this as a critearia when buying that it should not be treated with this material, but this doesn`t mean that is a fake and emameled tetsubin, many masters use this plant to prolongue the lifetime of their product.

Oni, my point is well made by your response. Horaido, the company you bought your kettle from, told me it was unlined. When I questioned them about this, they stopped responding. You pointed to them as someone you trust, yet, there is a contradiction here.

I am no expert on tetsubin but my eyes are the only thing I have to judge a kettle with and after seeing the Hojo-God's offerings, and, what the inside of a reduction fired, unlined kettle should look like, I believe few sellers know the difference. This is not to say you can't get a good kettle from Horaido but they leave me confused.

[Oni]

http://suganokaori.com/urushi.e.html

Great article Intuit, so this stuff is expencieve and rare, as Hojotea mentioned it makes the kettle really rust resistant, but that is not what we tea drinkers are looking for, after a while that noble rust is usefull to sweeten the water.

That is treated with Urushi plant for anti rust, not good at all, Hojo wrote that it reduces the beneficial aspects of the tetsubin.
P.S. Be sure to specify this as a critearia when buying that it should not be treated with this material, but this doesn`t mean that is a fake and emameled tetsubin, many masters use this plant to prolongue the lifetime of their product.

Oni, my point is well made by your response. Horaido, the company you bought your kettle from, told me it was unlined. When I questioned them about this, they stopped responding. You pointed to them as someone you trust, yet, there is a contradiction here.

I am no expert on tetsubin but my eyes are the only thing I have to judge a kettle with and after seeing the Hojo-God's offerings, and, what the inside of a reduction fired, unlined kettle should look like, I believe few sellers know the difference. This is not to say you can't get a good kettle from Horaido but they leave me confused.

It is easely imaginable that they really do not know the production of their products as much as they should, and they stopped answering because of a failure in communicating and understanding each other, they do not speak english as good as we do, but as I said my neighbouring country`s japanese teashop is pretty serious about their teaware, I am sure they cannot sell their stuff but the owner made quite a collection and mostly from Horaido, Nonoda, Rakuten, so these must be reliable, because he went to Kyoto to get the knowledge before buying (they speak japanese).

Sorry if I came out a little strong, but my point, Oni, was basically that using price as a criterion for selection is really not a good one, simply because somebody selling an awful, lined tetsubin that's worth $20 can claim it's great and sell for $400.

I am also extremely skeptical of Hojo's claim that only the new ones are good. My personal experiences with more than a dozen tetsubin at various times have shown that is not true at all -- old tetsubins are just as good, if not better, than new ones. I have one that is relatively new (30-40 years old, bought in almost unused condition), and I don't notice any real differences between that and the older, rustier ones I have. In short, I don't think it makes much of a difference at all whether it's old or new.

As for the issues of rust and scales - you can clean it, if it's excessive and affecting the water. Some rust will remain -- it's iron, so it will rust when it reacts with water, no matter what you do.

No problem I respect your opinion, because you are a more experienced tea drinker, I haven`t got enough experience to form a categoric opinion, so I respect lifeoftea and the leaf magazine and the art of tea magazine when they wrote good things about antique tetsubin, and I also respect Hojo`s opinion (his Tai Ping Hou Kui was really diffrent from all out there).
I am glad we can finally talk about the neglected theme of water heating in the tea preparation, I believe that tea drinking should also be about experiencing the cha qi, so boiling the water can make a diffrence.
And about the deceptiveness of some vendors and companies we can only arm ourselves with knowledge, read more ask pictures from the sellers, check out if they know enough about their products, so that you can stay safe from the obvious scams, but if one seller sells a good product with a high price, always try to find a similar or the same item elsewhere and compare the prices, for example
Nanbu Gata Koma Mon 2.0Liter 182,000 Y Kiri Wooden Box, Hojo`s price,
http://www.suzukimorihisa.com/htdocs_e/work.html , second from the top the same for 140,000 Y, so hojo has 4200 Y interest compared to suzuki morihisa`s main site,
Or Horaido sold Tachi Masaki banko for 5500Y, Hojo for 10000, 4500 Y interest, so this is why I won`t buy such things from hojo, because he is too expenceive, and so is artisticnippon.
But the only place I have seen antique tetsubin was nadacha.co.uk, the tetsubins are expenceive but I have no other shop to compare the prices.

[ginkgo]

"Oni, I must strongly disagree with your statement here. Every single one of my antique tetsubins are under $200, and I can guarantee you they do something to my water."
I agree with Marshal ! I have buy 5 old tetsubin , different prices and ages and have each time the same water ( in Switzerland we have water from the mountain coming down) .... and the old one with "rust" inside , is given a sweetness and a taste so beautifull. The capacity of the tetsubin is also important I think. I buy a one that is more recent , without any rust but the taste is flat and just "common" , nothing else. But the heavy little one with rust is wonderfull for aged pu er . The last one I buy has rust inside but it seems that the vendor has put something over the iron on the externe face and I think it is subtile but the taste is not so full and heavy and good. I am just tasting this one but I think that the quality of the taste is altered.
Each one has an other taste and with the parctice I use one for green tea and an other one for pu er ...I am a fan of these kind of taste indeed.
So I think a new one seems perfect but...it will nerver bring this kind of sweetness...but it is just my mind !

[tenuki]

I agree with Marshal. I've had from new and old and I like old. I only use mine for japanese green tea, prefer my lins ceramic earthen kettle for oolongs and don't care for blacks.

Here's mine - under 200 from a US antique dealer ( so I know I payed too much ), sweetens water nicely, about 1 liter volume (I was looking for a smaller one).

Interesting note: At first, since it hadn't been used in a while the water change was too pronounced and unpleasant, but after a few long boiling sessions with a few green tea leaves in the kettle all seemed to be rebalanced. the interior has a thin white crust and a few small spots of rust, which I have left undisturbed.

[tenuki]

How do you deal with the rust and scale issues of the antique ones?

Deal? That is the good stuff man..

[chamekke]

I like the tachibana mon (crest), too! Tachibana is a type of citrus, and is fairly popular as a crest in Japan:



More examples here:
http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/plant/tachibana.htm