Hole in my teacup

[Tead Off]

". . . but if you look at it with what I would call a 'Chinese eye', you would see a flaw, mainly because the Chinese have been taught for centuries that the best ceramics are types of porcelains with silky glaze."

That's a great point, but I think there's another factor at work as well: the Chinese imperial kilns, and their standards of production. They set the standards for "perfect" Chinese ceramics, and those standards remain to this day. A piece isn't perfect if it has a glaze pop or some flyspecks or if it's skewed even slightly off base, among other problems, and it would never have been sent to the imperial court with such a problem. The emperor wouldn't hear of it. And neither would the most fussy of modern collectors, who still expect the finest wares to meet the imperial standards of perfection. (Of course, in fact, they usually don't meet those standards, but that's another issue.)

You just illustrated exactly what I meant. The Chinese have been indoctrinated into what is beautiful or not mainly from royal tastes developed over centuries. They developed their glazes for that silky glass-like look. But, they weren't always this way. This type of work also took root in Korea and Japan but it seems with the migration of Ch'an (Zen) Buddism further east, the more organic styles also left China with it. At least this is my theory.

[yanom]

Thanks for the further suggestions.
I don't think the photos do justice to the fact that this is no pinhole -- you could fit 20 or more pin tips into this blackened hole in the glaze. I gave the cup to a friend to use as a penholder or whatever. I was never looking for something completely uniform in appearance, I welcome the stains and marks and dents and what have you, but for me this hole in the glaze hits me as an accident of function rather than of form.
I don't know how to describe what I mean unless, say, with a piece of Chinese calligraphy: sometimes characters are written in a non-standard way for aesthetic reasons & one can appreciate them in that way, but if they have simply been written incorrectly by mistake (ie, basically, the spelling is wrong) then something jars as "being wrong". Or maybe a line of poetry in English where one's more than happy for the writer to take certain liberties with syntax and so on, but not if he or his publisher makes a mistake like "shall I compare the to a summer's day".
Or, again, if your prized mug fell over and got a chip in the lip, would that be no different to if the potter makes it with a dent in the side?
Anyway, as I said, I'm no expert but the hole in this cup's glaze seems unusual, looked ugly, and troubled me, and therefore I got rid of the thing, and feel much better for having done so.

[JBaymore]

If you are throwing it out... I'll catch it!

One of the things that the Japanese culture embraces in much of their ceramics is inherent materiality; clay and glaze BEING clay and glaze. Being earth dug materials subject to heat and fire exhibiting qualities that do not belie that particular formative genesis.

Personally, I do not see that particular hole as a defect by any means. It is a blessing from the kamisama. It is a nice cup. Rather then walk away, use it and learn from it. Clearly others tend to see value in the piece. See if you can learn why people can appreciate such objects. It will be a journey of self-discovery.

best,

................john

[yanom]

I do appreciate your attempt to persuade me that this is not a flaw. But for me, these things are subjective: as I said, would you not be sad if you dropped a cup you liked and it got a big chip? I might see a smallish hole in the glaze as a problem, you may not. But what if the hole was twice the size? Or, say, an inch or two wide? At some point you'd surely draw the line and say 'I don't like that'. People being different, my line is in a different place to yours and the hole meant I didn't like the cup . The stains and other marks I like (though actually I find the big dent a bit daft).
John, you suggest I learn from it: to my surprise I have: that I can have quite strong feelings about what I like and what I don't when it comes to tea cups! Even if these are different from what everyone else thinks.
I do feel the need to apologise as well, for sounding-off like this and not accepting the advice of people who know far far more about all this than I do but I think there are times you've got to go with what feels right.

[debunix]

I understand that finding something irksome about a piece of teaware might really not add to your tea enjoyment. But seriously, you could find a bunch of tealovers here who'd enjoy giving a cup like that a home, and you'd recover part of your investment in it if you sold it via a teaSwap.

It may be too late for this cup, but not too late for future purchases.....

I have a shiboridashi that seems more precious to me everytime I use it and have to a align the lid so that it's chip is not over the spout, and I only use it for one particular tea because it's current repair is very fragile. When it first broke I thought it was beyond use, but the more I looked at it and realized how much I still love the form and shape and color and texture of it, the more it seemed wrong to condemn it to a shelf unused. I realized that it is still entirely worthy of use, and moreover, I am now determined to finish the repair with better materials to highlight it's fragility and beauty.

[karmaplace]

I gave the cup to a friend to use as a penholder or whatever.

What a shame. You could have swapped it or sold it on the forum, it's pretty obvious there's a lot of interest for it. I hope it doesn't really end up as a pencil cup.

I'll admit when I first came to this forum and saw the Hagi thread, I was frankly appalled by the pieces. I couldn't understand why anyone would think those pieces were worth the price or beautiful in any way. And then, slowly, over time, I began to build a liking and appreciation for them. Each artisan-made piece is truly unique and things that could be seen as "flaws" make them even more so. I mean, there are even pieces that are expected leak for a time, and there are people who enjoy them! I now am a proud owner of many different types of wares, and I prefer the more organic styles.

Now, I am not saying that you're not entitled to your opinion. Everyone has their own aesthetic tastes; there are some wares I see on this forum that I love, and there are others that I hate. However, I don't think your chip in a cup analogy is the best way to describe this particular hole. The cup was made, sold, and bought the way it is. It's not that it was changed or disfigured after the process, like dropping a cup and chipping it would be. Sure, pieces do not always come out of the kiln in the same manner that the potter intended, but as long as the piece remains functional, I think quite a few people would perceive the result as an acceptable surprise or "happy accident".

Sorry if I'm getting worked up over this, and I'm probably just being ridiculous, but it makes me sad to think that an artisan's work could wind up as a pencil cup.

[debunix]

it makes me sad to think that an artisan's work could wind up as a pencil cup.

I probably should give up and sell a particular piece that gets more use as a holder of objects than as a piece of teaware, but I can still wipe it down and use it for tea now and again, and it does get more use as a holder of aesthetically pleasing objects.....

[AdamMY]

Oh no, you guys are saying I need to sell my favorite cup. Here is its inside, the outside is far worse

[karmaplace]

I probably should give up and sell a particular piece that gets more use as a holder of objects than as a piece of teaware, but I can still wipe it down and use it for tea now and again, and it does get more use as a holder of aesthetically pleasing objects.....

If it's holding aesthetically pleasing objects than I don't really have a problem with that. I've made some teaware purchase "blunders" before. I've got cups I rarely use and some pieces I use "inappropriately", but luckily none of them were particularly large investments; I've got a cheap ($10) wabi-sabi-esque piece with three little feet that I picked up in a Korean tea shop that I use for jewelry, and I have some teeny Chinese celadon cups that my boyfriend frequently uses for spices and sauces.

I just can't imagine re-purposing a Nakao piece though. I mean, his name is engraved at the Louvre!

Adam, is that a Kashun? I adore mine.

[AdamMY]

Adam, is that a Kashun? I adore mine.

Yes it is, it was my first piece from him, and I have been meaning to acquire more and more, currently the only other piece I have from him is a Houbin.

[yanom]

Now that cup looks nice!

[Tead Off]

I do appreciate your attempt to persuade me that this is not a flaw. But for me, these things are subjective: as I said, would you not be sad if you dropped a cup you liked and it got a big chip? I might see a smallish hole in the glaze as a problem, you may not. But what if the hole was twice the size? Or, say, an inch or two wide? At some point you'd surely draw the line and say 'I don't like that'. People being different, my line is in a different place to yours and the hole meant I didn't like the cup . The stains and other marks I like (though actually I find the big dent a bit daft).
John, you suggest I learn from it: to my surprise I have: that I can have quite strong feelings about what I like and what I don't when it comes to tea cups! Even if these are different from what everyone else thinks.
I do feel the need to apologise as well, for sounding-off like this and not accepting the advice of people who know far far more about all this than I do but I think there are times you've got to go with what feels right.

Most of us are caught in endless likes and dislikes. All learned, I might add. This becomes part of the person we call ourselves. Is that who we really are? Better not to analyze too much. Thinking leads nowhere. The cup used for tea or pencils, what does it really matter?

[Ostara]

Oh no, you guys are saying I need to sell my favorite cup. Here is its inside, the outside is far worse

oh my this is a beautiful cup where did you end up finding it? I love t

[AdamMY]

That cup came from Zencha.net their stuff can be pricey though, especially with the recent strength in the Japanese yen.

[Ostara]

thanks i'll have to take a look there, i would love to see what the outside looks like either way beautiful piece