yuuki-cha vs dens. Trying to find a good green tea vendor!

[Chip]

Last night, I remembered in addition to helping Yuuki-Cha, I also shared their teas with members of TeaChat largely at my own expense (pre OTTI era) at a time when they were virtually an unknown entity. One of my passions is to spread the good news about Japanese tea, and help all vendors who are legitimately selling quality Japanese teas. To this end, over the last 5 years, I have aided many vendors ... including Yuuki-Cha.

Chip, you certainly know how to carry a grudge.

Please do not mock me on this issue. I consider myself a victim in this ordeal as a direct result of the actions of this vendor. I would not want anyone else to have to go through this. You may scoff at this notion, but this is how I feel. I carry no grudge as it is defined.

grudge: a feeling of ill will or resentment.

You have implied this before. You also previously acused me of being on a vendetta. The facts are simple, nothing has changed. Dan of Yuuki-Cha definitely wronged me. TeaChat was his "weapon." He used the forum to entrap and indirectly attempted to censor me. Then he proceeded to hold my money (technically mine and other members, 100's of dollars), not ship goods paid for, and only returned the money once I threatened further actions including reporting to PayPal.

victim: 2. a person who is tricked or swindled; duped

After he used and abused TeaChat, he has never once responded to any contact from me. Including when he held my money.

These are the condensed facts.

Therefore, as both the victim and the moderator of this forum, it is legitimate to respond to requests for recommendations about Yuuki-Cha in order at least make sure the inquiring member is aware ... but also to remind others that Yuuki-Cha has never made this right, yet I am always available.

This is also a reminder that giving an honest opinion about Yuuki-Cha's products can land you in a similar position. THIS is the worst part about this.

Grudge or vendetta, no. If this was a grudge or a vendetta, I would be on every tea forum, facebook, twitter, and any other method that I could inflict harm on this vendor. I am only reporting it right here, where it all began!!! I stick to the facts and effects. If I was acting on a grudge, I would abuse my "powers" and ban the word Yuuki-Cha from TeaChat ...

Sadly, I am sure this leaves a bad taste in the mouth of Yuuki-Cha fans, I feel badly for those of you. But I make no apologies. I did not choose to be a "victim."

[Tead Off]

You should seek help, Chip. Isn't that what 'victims' do? Cmon, give it a rest. There is no bad taste in my mouth, just the good taste of tea. Sorry I don't share your sentiments and you keep turning the knife with your anger. It can't feel good, Chip. Things happen in life, sometimes unpleasant. Because you had a bad experience with someone doesn't mean that everyone else is going to have a bad experience. Hey, someone married my ex-wife.

[Chip]

If you would like to offer personal suggestions, I would ask that not post these on the forum in a mocking manner ... or at all for that matter. There is a PM feature or email that you can use for telling me to get help.

So, now I am acting in anger, I will add this to your list of vendetta and grudge. You are being judgemental, bordering on harrassment.

I post not in anger, but in truth. Saying nothing is simply apathetic.

You continue to attack me personally for my experience, "vendetta, grudge, anger, twisting the knife" ... you obviously do not know me.

You can state your opinion on Yuuki-Cha, and I will continue to state mine because I feel it has a direct impact on members of TeaChat. Apparently I can live with having differing opinions but you cannot? However, as members we rely on the honestly and honor of vendors to deliver goods for payment made to companies half a planet away.

It would be great if we could just say nice things about vendors, I would love this.

Anger, no ...

Your attitude is like, "well, he only shot you, he has never shot anyone else, he is a nice guy, so why don't you give it a rest." His actions did, and can in the future have a direct impact on others of this forum. To you, saying the truth as a possible warning to others of a possible repeat action is twisting a knife. This is a common type of statement made to victims.

The ball remains in YuukiCha's hands ... I have made many contacts with zero response. Who has the grudge? Why don't you tell him to contact me directly so we can resolve this once and for all. That would be productive.

[Chip]

... however I can understand that this can be exasperating after you have already heard it a few times. However, there are those who never have, such as the OP.

[Stentor]

Guys, make tea, not war.

As far as Yuuki-Cha goes, I think that focussing on organic teas is commendable and I wish that more vendors pursued that avenue.

However, I don't like their blog posts so much in which they act like organic teas have much more "authentic" and much better flavor in general, which is simply not the case at all (unfortunately).
It may also be possible that they are overstating the quality of a given year's harvest vs. the previous year's (They could also have gotten lucky with a particular grower's crop). Then again, rarely do you find a merchant stating that the product they have now is not as good as the one they had last year.
I am very pro organic by the way and not just when it comes to tea.
There are some gems among the organic teas, though, to be sure.

I have purchased from Yuuki-Cha in the past when their selection wasn't so overwhelmingly large. They stopped carrying the tea that I liked, so I haven't ordered from them again so far.
I am glad other vendors are venturing to offer more organics. Those organic teas that I have found offered from other vendor's seem to have been very well selected and up to that vendor's (high) standards.
So if you want to go organic and are not sure about Yuuki-Cha (for whatever reasons), there certainly are alternatives.

I think everybody should be allowed to make their own decision.

I wasn't in Chip's shoes when he had his issues with Yuuki-Cha, so I can't exactly feel like he does. The good thing is, at least he is not bashing Yuuki-Cha when it is unsolicited. He voiced his concerns when somebody specifically asked if that vendor can be recommended.
There are other instances on the forum where somebody bought something from a certain vendor and wasn't satisfied with their service or even felt somewhat cheated (just look at the Yixing pot issue in the other thread).

The sad thing is, that this issue has persisted for so long and has not been resolved.
Maybe it's time to make a peace offering. Although I can understand Chip if he expects that peace offering to come from the other party involved rather than from himself. It would certainly be a good thing to admit that what they did was wrong, maybe they were young and inexperienced and did something stupid that they would not do again. I'm sure we've all been there.

[Tead Off]

Lighten up, Chip. We all get it. Remember the old Abbot & Costello routine when one of them heard a certain name or word, he would suddenly become deadly serious and say, 'slowly I turned, step by step' with a murderous look on his face.

[rdl]

drawing on the OP's question, the idea of choosing a vendor one trusts and finds excellent selections from is both a personal and shared experience.
i agree with tead-off and stentor about water under the bridge (better for the soul), yet i fully understand chip's effort to report his ordeal. tead-off, you just ordered from T-Oolong based on positive recommendations and have given your own positive recommendation, which i was happy to know as a possible option for oolong. i don't agree that time should disolve an experience, and one should keep quiet.
i would like to hear from the OP as to how he feels this conversation has helped him, or not. he is trying to find a "good green tea vendor!" and good green tea of course but as he stressed the vendor all opinions are valid.
these relationships are such that we take them personally. they take our money and we take their trust and product. the joys and disappointments are to be expected, but some actions do cross the line. both parties are free to be honest and relate to others what transpired. some friends make up and leave ill-will behind. and for some, the story stops there.
it seems that if the OP orders from either of the 2 vendors he is asking about the tea selection will be just fine. and i am sure he will develop his own relationship and trust - and will contribute to TC as the rest of us do. as long as it is in good faith, i will certainly pay attention.

[Peacock]

Going back to your question Cagan, both have high quality green teas that are good. I haven't personally tried Den's except for their sample, but I was satisfied with each sample . I also can attest to Yuuki-Cha, along with O-cha, Zencha, and Maiko too. They all have extremely good teas. So pick one.

[Chip]

rdl, hopefully so ... and very likely. I sense that Yuuki-Cha wishes they could go back in time. Perhaps I have made this safer for others ... perhaps not.

Yuuki-Cha could easily stop this. Just email me. Until that time, I will likely continue to respond to posts such as the OP's as I have stated I would.

Such is life. Of course, anyone can choose to ignore my posts.

Lighten up, Chip. We all get it. Remember the old Abbot & Costello routine when one of them heard a certain name or word, he would suddenly become deadly serious and say, 'slowly I turned, step by step' with a murderous look on his face.

You are very funny I am sure.

... I have stated, I am not angry, hold no grudge, am not on a vendetta. And no murderous look on my face at the mention of Yuuki-Cha.

I will however add murderous look on I guess my face to your list of personal insults.

This obviously bothers or angers you much more than you will admit or you would simply ignore my comments and sip your yuuki-cha. Instead you add personal insult on top of personal insult.

Do you think you will anger me? Not likely. Though your mocking personal insults ... concern me.

[AdamMY]

Lighten up, Chip. We all get it. Remember the old Abbot & Costello routine when one of them heard a certain name or word, he would suddenly become deadly serious and say, 'slowly I turned, step by step' with a murderous look on his face.

I suggest you take your own advice. Somehow every time Chip mentions this you insist on getting in this flame war with him. Even if most people are saying favorable things about Yuuki-cha, clearly the person asking the question would like to have all of the facts, and can decide what they want to do for themselves. I think what Chip does is completely called for and acceptable, the people are coming here asking for advice, and Chip is just saying, be careful, this vendor has in the past acted unscrupulously. While your mileage may vary, who knows if you will set him off to act in such a way. I feel its probably best for you to just voice your opinion in support of Yuuki-cha, and let all honest feedback be given, and then let the person asking the question decide for themselves.

I for one am not sure why the only two they considered were Yuuki-cha and Den's, as they are companies I would rather not deal with personally, and there are many others I would like to try before I circle back around to either of those vendors. One thing I will say I liked from the order I shared with someone from Yuuki-cha is some of their teas are offered in 100gram orders, but they come in 2x 50 gram bags which makes splitting an order between two people easy, if you wish to sample their teas. I also think Dens is a great place if you are just starting out and do not have a lot of money to spend on Teaware, or you are in the United States, and want to get your tea quickly without paying a lot in shipping.

[blairswhitaker]

for asamushi= light steam
2012 Organic Kagoshima Shincha Kirishima No Kaori or the available sencha version (this is a personal favorite of mine)

Its funny you mention that one as it was one of the first Asu I tried from Yuuki and I much prefer it too even the more expensive options. IN fact I bought some of that stuff that's $20 and couldnt wait to finish it to buy more of the one you mentioned. Its got a really nice sweet chestnut flavour .

This is also a favorite of mine! Love that in a Banko kyusu. Hmm.

I've enjoyed senchas from both Dens and Yuuki-cha, as well as from other vendors. One important thing to figure out before you buy a lot of sencha, organic or not, from any supplier is to figure out if you prefer lighter or deeper steamed sencha (asamushi vs fukamushi). I'm a fan of the lighter steamed stuff but I'm in a minority here, as most teaChatters prefer the deeper steamed tea.

If you trying out deep steamed/fukamushi sencha, a pot with fine or even extra-fine infuser/infuser screen/mesh filter is highly recommended.

I havent found that that's need myself. I've got a banko tachi (medium ball filter) here and all that's required is a slow gentle pour. It ends up with exactly the same amount of particles in the cup as my finest sasame filter.....plus for some reason I find sencha taste better when pour very slow and gently...don't know why

looks like we all think alike here, I love that particular tea in my tachi banko, and I also have no problems pouring fukamushi out of mine "slow and gentle" the ball filter does a great job.

to the OP hope all these opinions flying around don't scare you away from teachat. Most of us are trying to help but often get caught up in our own paradigm.

[NOESIS]

I've not had much tea from Den's, but definitely two thumbs up for Yuuki. Fast service, and quality teas.

[sebpassion]

I've not had much tea from Den's, but definitely two thumbs up for Yuuki. Fast service, and quality teas.

+1

[Cagan]

Holy molly!!! Lots of posts! Thank you all so much for your advice. I was in meetings all day so I was just now able to get to all the fourm posts. The dens sample was incredible. The first one we tried was the sencha fuka something ? Maybe the fukamidori? I can't remember what the first one was but it was really incredible. I was just trying to determine if one vendor was inherently better than another in terms of quality. I just need to figure out the differences between all the different types of tea but in the mean time I'm defenitely going to get that sencha zukio(I think it's called) and some really good gokyuro. We will also try some other teas as well. My other concern is the amount of water it asks for on the instructions. It says like 2 or 3 oz of water in the instructions. We have a 16oz Japanese teapot that we got from teavana and I'm pretty sure that 2 or 3 oz of water wouldn't sit high enough to submerge the tea leaves in the steaper. Each sample packet from dens gave us like 3 or 4 teaspoons so we just put the whole packet in. Is that correct? Also the instructions that came with our dens sampler talk about a calm brew and a robust brew. Any of the teas that (in the instructions) required lower than boiling temperature we made by boiling the water, pouring the kettle into a large cup then pouring the cup of hot water back over the kettle with the tea in it. That's what the dens instructions told us to do. Is that correct? Should we use a robust brew by just heating up the water to the right temperature and leaving it? Hopefully this is coherent - I'm walking to my car while typing this on my phone. Thanks!

[Poohblah]

read the pm I sent you.

16oz of water is a lot. and if you have a "japanese" pot from teavana, one of those cast iron jobbies, don't bother using it. Iron retains too much heat, and Teavana's pots have some sort of sketchy liner/coating on the inside. Porcelain or clay would be much better.

Usually around 8oz (1 cup, ~250mL) of water is best for 1 or 2 tablespoons of sencha. Gyokuro will use much less water - about half.

Pouring water back and forth between cups is a good way to cool the water down. I'll pour boiling water into the teapot to pre-heat it, then pour off into a cooling vessel (cup, another teapot, makeshift samashi, whatever) and wait for the water to cool the rest of the way. I usually cool it down enough that I can stick my finger in it for 10 or 15 seconds or more.