Yixing lid test?

[JBaymore]

Having recently been in Yixing as a guest of the government and the local art college (Wuxi Institute).........

................... the vast, vast, VAST preponderance of the wares made in Yixing today are made using serious industrial techniques. The same goes for the clay bodies. The volume of production in Yixing is TREMENDOUS by anyone's standards. Pots are everywhere. MOST is not "handcrafted" or "traditional" as most are probably thinking of those terms.

If you are not paying a LOT of money for a piece (compared to what I typically see most TeaChat folks discussing here) ...... the odds are good that you are not getting what you think you are getting. Good more traditionally made works from the "good" clays.......... with the handwork this implies.... are NOT typically inexpensive.

Yes, if you are IN Yixing and know where to look.... you can find some lesser known artists making work by hand in the some of the lower price brackets........ (a mere hundred dollars retail give or take) but it is not easy.....and the odds are good that these are NOT most of the folks showing up in the commercial ventures selling Yixing work online.

But if the piece works for you........ that is really all that matters in the end.

best,

........................john

[Hmm]

heh ... my everyday pot is student-made, i know its ok, but im not trying this test on it

my only definite 'master-made' pot isnt getting subjected neither

both stop pour with a finger on the lid-hole

I tried it with my other hand literally a few millimeters away from the lid, basically cupping it from underneath. I also used cold water, so that might affect the seal.

But I guess everyone is right... this only tests how well crafted the pot is, and not whether the clay is good.

[Hmm]

All along the history of Yixing pots, famous pots have been copied, also as part of the learning process of apprentice potters, or as sign of appreciation. Famous Ming and Qing pots copied in the ROC period, for example, are highly searched after, and very expensive. But of course far less expensive than the originals.
Fakes though, made with the intent to cheat buyers, are inferior, and can even be hazardous to your health. Artificially created patina can consist of any sort of material. You will be better off with a normal new pot that is simply what it is - a simple new pot.

People look for older pots for several reasons - pure clay, different clay processing methods and traditional firing methods enhance the taste of the tea. That is why the Cultural Revolution Shui Ping are so well loved even though the craftsmanship is mostly sub-standard, and mass produced.


To really know about pots, one has to live for a long time in one of the tea centers, has to study background material (which means to be able to read Chinese), has to have access to serious collectors and experts from whom to learn from, has to spend time in Yixing itself, etc.

All these so-called tests will not help you - it's only proper studying. Everything can be faked, and generally is as well. There is a lot of money in Yixing pots.

I only know what i don't know about Yixing pots.

Hmm... so what are mere mortals supposed to do if they don't have decades to spend in Yixing, or don't have a certified tea expert with them? I'm not fluent in Chinese, but can read Chinese newspapers articles, and get 80% of the meaning most of the time, but philosophical text makes my brain explode.

Are there really no trusted business sources out there?

I don't think the pots I got by the young artisan are bad. I got them for about $40-50 bucks per pot while in China about 5 years ago. Although something is telling me the clay isn't the highest quality. When I hit the pot with the lid, it definitely doesn't sound like a bell, but more like a clank. Perhaps it's because it's a shuiping shaped pot. I don't know. I guess this is where experience is needed.

I just started using a pot, and after brewing with it twice, a glossy patina is starting to show up.

[hopeofdawn]

Just a thought, from watching the many, many discussions of yixing here on Teachat--

Is it possible that we're doing perfectly good pots a disservice by expecting some kind of extraordinary enhancement to our tea? I know there are pots out there that likely can do everything the yixing mystique ascribes to them, but realistically, it seems like most--if not all--of them are likely to be out of the range of the average Western tea aficionado. But if the pot is well-crafted, of good material (i.e. not adulterated by lead or worse), and both brews and pours well ... then shouldn't the rest of the pot's value would be in the eye of the beholder?

I am certainly no yixing expert, of course, and it's possible that I'm being naïve. Still, I think you can't go wrong by buying a pot you find beautiful and that brews tea well, handmade or otherwise.

[theredbaron]

Hmm... so what are mere mortals supposed to do if they don't have decades to spend in Yixing, or don't have a certified tea expert with them? I'm not fluent in Chinese, but can read Chinese newspapers articles, and get 80% of the meaning most of the time, but philosophical text makes my brain explode.

Are there really no trusted business sources out there?

I don't think the pots I got by the young artisan are bad. I got them for about $40-50 bucks per pot while in China about 5 years ago. Although something is telling me the clay isn't the highest quality. When I hit the pot with the lid, it definitely doesn't sound like a bell, but more like a clank. Perhaps it's because it's a shuiping shaped pot. I don't know. I guess this is where experience is needed.

I just started using a pot, and after brewing with it twice, a glossy patina is starting to show up.

I have no real answer. I am not an expert in Yixing pots. Some here on the forum are though, i believe.

I guess it's like everything here in Asia - having the right connections. What's it called in Mandarin - Guanxi?

You get to know the right people, you build personal relationships, become part of a social network, and then you will have access to what previously seemed inaccessible.

In this case here, you have to become part of local tea circles, enter a master-student relationship. Once you are in this, you will find out that people will be incredibly generous, and will help you along your way, and find a good tea pot for you for affordable prices, you may even be presented with one.

Once some time ago it was actually quite easy to find some good older tea pots for reasonable prices in the markets. But unfortunately, that time is over, unless you really know what you are doing. I have a few from that time, but i wish i would have known more about this then, as i could have build a fabulous collection. Hindsight...

You have to understand - also in Asia the demand for good, and especially older teapots far outstrips supply. Don't expect that good teapots will be offered to a western market, when it can sell easily for much better prices in the local market.
Tea culture is a highly respected and old tradition in Asia under Chinese. It's not instant gratification. People learn decades how to appreciate tea. Social relationships are part of this culture. Therefore you will have to learn to adapt to this.

[BioHorn]

All along the history of Yixing pots, famous pots have been copied, also as part of the learning process of apprentice potters, or as sign of appreciation. Famous Ming and Qing pots copied in the ROC period, for example, are highly searched after, and very expensive. But of course far less expensive than the originals.
Fakes though, made with the intent to cheat buyers, are inferior, and can even be hazardous to your health. Artificially created patina can consist of any sort of material. You will be better off with a normal new pot that is simply what it is - a simple new pot.

People look for older pots for several reasons - pure clay, different clay processing methods and traditional firing methods enhance the taste of the tea. That is why the Cultural Revolution Shui Ping are so well loved even though the craftsmanship is mostly sub-standard, and mass produced.


To really know about pots, one has to live for a long time in one of the tea centers, has to study background material (which means to be able to read Chinese), has to have access to serious collectors and experts from whom to learn from, has to spend time in Yixing itself, etc.

All these so-called tests will not help you - it's only proper studying. Everything can be faked, and generally is as well. There is a lot of money in Yixing pots.

I only know what i don't know about Yixing pots.

Hmm... so what are mere mortals supposed to do if they don't have decades to spend in Yixing, or don't have a certified tea expert with them? I'm not fluent in Chinese, but can read Chinese newspapers articles, and get 80% of the meaning most of the time, but philosophical text makes my brain explode.

Are there really no trusted business sources out there?

I don't think the pots I got by the young artisan are bad. I got them for about $40-50 bucks per pot while in China about 5 years ago. Although something is telling me the clay isn't the highest quality. When I hit the pot with the lid, it definitely doesn't sound like a bell, but more like a clank. Perhaps it's because it's a shuiping shaped pot. I don't know. I guess this is where experience is needed.

I just started using a pot, and after brewing with it twice, a glossy patina is starting to show up.

Just buy a pot of nominal size with a good pour and and a shape that pleases you. When you find it does not suit you, get something else. Maybe by that point you will have come across something you like better. Seems like many previous posters gave good advice. Of course the two are coneccted, but I have felt it has been more productive spending my energy learning about tea rather than pots. Best of luck in your quests.

[chrl42]

Just a thought, from watching the many, many discussions of yixing here on Teachat--

Is it possible that we're doing perfectly good pots a disservice by expecting some kind of extraordinary enhancement to our tea? I know there are pots out there that likely can do everything the yixing mystique ascribes to them, but realistically, it seems like most--if not all--of them are likely to be out of the range of the average Western tea aficionado. But if the pot is well-crafted, of good material (i.e. not adulterated by lead or worse), and both brews and pours well ... then shouldn't the rest of the pot's value would be in the eye of the beholder?

I am certainly no yixing expert, of course, and it's possible that I'm being naïve. Still, I think you can't go wrong by buying a pot you find beautiful and that brews tea well, handmade or otherwise.

It's like drinking tea..if one likes Jasmine tea and finds suitable for him...it's the best tea..that's why Jasmine tea has been so loved in Sichuan and here in Northern China

Then there have been aficionados drinking Puerh...I guess a tea has been never studied like that before Puerh (old people they had studied teawares, water, way of preparing etc..) I guess Yixing teapot is pretty much in the same line along with Puerh tea....

Back then in Qing dynasty..there have been stories they had sold houses, expensive treasures to buy Yixing teapots in southern China (those days Yixings were already pricey for distance, scarcity reasons)

[Evan Draper]

I have IQ>140 and dirty pants. What kind of Yixing should I buy?
Thanks for all the great posts, friends....

[MarshalN]

Just a thought, from watching the many, many discussions of yixing here on Teachat--

Is it possible that we're doing perfectly good pots a disservice by expecting some kind of extraordinary enhancement to our tea? I know there are pots out there that likely can do everything the yixing mystique ascribes to them, but realistically, it seems like most--if not all--of them are likely to be out of the range of the average Western tea aficionado. But if the pot is well-crafted, of good material (i.e. not adulterated by lead or worse), and both brews and pours well ... then shouldn't the rest of the pot's value would be in the eye of the beholder?

I am certainly no yixing expert, of course, and it's possible that I'm being naïve. Still, I think you can't go wrong by buying a pot you find beautiful and that brews tea well, handmade or otherwise.

I have always said that teaware (including yixing pots) are, by far, the least effective way of improving your tea, on a per dollar basis. You're better off just buying better tea leaves.

[MarshalN]

A yixing passing lid test (for teapots of specific sizes, shapes and clay textures) is just like a job interviewee with a pair of clean trousers (or a skirt or whatever with equivalent function). You don't praise him for his clean trousers, because, doesn't everybody have clean outfits in your office anyway.

Exceptions could be made for interviewees with IQ>140 and dirty pants. But if you see a dozen interviewees within few days in dirty pants who are claimed to have IQ>140 and demand high salary, there are two possibilities, 1), you are a lucky boss who've attracted genius; 2), your hiring manager sent you arrogant and stupid interviewees with low EQ. Since we didn't see your candidates, it's up to you to decide which type of luck you've fallen in.

If you are told it's common that interviewees wear dirty pants, then your next question might be, did your hiring manager do his homework at all? Wouldn't most dirty-pants interviewees already have itchy resumes as well?

(if you work in IT industry where everybody wears dirty pants, you could replace the clean pants in above paragraphs with t-shirt, shirt or any top of equivalent function )

Sorry Gingko, but I think your theory here is totally wrong. Lots of wenge shuipings won't pass this lid test, not well anyway. I'd take one of those over any of these new pots that pass this lid test any day.

The fact of the matter is the lid test really tests something that has NOTHING to do with how well a pot will brew tea. You never, ever need a tight lid for brewing good tea - yes, it might drip less, but that also has to do with how the spout pours, and not so much lid fit. Lid fit can be achieved with an industrial mold. It doesn't make it a good pot.

[jayinhk]

Sorry Gingko, but I think your theory here is totally wrong. Lots of wenge shuipings won't pass this lid test, not well anyway. I'd take one of those over any of these new pots that pass this lid test any day.

The fact of the matter is the lid test really tests something that has NOTHING to do with how well a pot will brew tea. You never, ever need a tight lid for brewing good tea - yes, it might drip less, but that also has to do with how the spout pours, and not so much lid fit. Lid fit can be achieved with an industrial mold. It doesn't make it a good pot.

Before I bought my first Yixing, I thought what Marshal said about lids was heresy. Now that I've been regularly using pots (that Marshal recommended to me) for a year, I have to wholeheartedly agree with him.

Clay quality, a good pour and shape/size appear to be the most important factors, and a good Yixing teapot absolutely makes a difference to the tea you brew in it. My first pot, which is thicker walled, makes any funky traditionally-stored pu erh much less offensive, and my thinner-walled oolong pots really bring out the subtleties in my medium oxidation to high fire oolongs. Conversely my thinner-walled pu erh pot (which is identical to my oolong pots) makes my traditionally-stored pu erh more unpleasant to drink than if the same tea is brewed in porcelain, but works beautifully for younger, less fermented sheng. YMMV.

[gingkoseto]

A yixing passing lid test (for teapots of specific sizes, shapes and clay textures) is just like a job interviewee with a pair of clean trousers (or a skirt or whatever with equivalent function). You don't praise him for his clean trousers, because, doesn't everybody have clean outfits in your office anyway.

Exceptions could be made for interviewees with IQ>140 and dirty pants. But if you see a dozen interviewees within few days in dirty pants who are claimed to have IQ>140 and demand high salary, there are two possibilities, 1), you are a lucky boss who've attracted genius; 2), your hiring manager sent you arrogant and stupid interviewees with low EQ. Since we didn't see your candidates, it's up to you to decide which type of luck you've fallen in.

If you are told it's common that interviewees wear dirty pants, then your next question might be, did your hiring manager do his homework at all? Wouldn't most dirty-pants interviewees already have itchy resumes as well?

(if you work in IT industry where everybody wears dirty pants, you could replace the clean pants in above paragraphs with t-shirt, shirt or any top of equivalent function )

Sorry Gingko, but I think your theory here is totally wrong. Lots of wenge shuipings won't pass this lid test, not well anyway. I'd take one of those over any of these new pots that pass this lid test any day.

The fact of the matter is the lid test really tests something that has NOTHING to do with how well a pot will brew tea. You never, ever need a tight lid for brewing good tea - yes, it might drip less, but that also has to do with how the spout pours, and not so much lid fit.Lid fit can be achieved with an industrial mold. It doesn't make it a good pot.

The blue part, that's exactly what I talked about IQ140 with dirty pants, unless you think there are many more wenge teapots than modern teapots available today.
The green part, my hands that use teapots don't agree with you.
I don't use any antique or collector level teapots, but mainly use high quality modern teapots with reasonable price - I believe that's the affordable range of most people and I hope they don't have the myth of getting a teapot with poor lid fit and just *wish* it's a wenge teapot.
The red part, I've seen this for quite a few times on teachat and I hope I'm not the only one feeling there is a logic problem for this argument - a stupid interviewee wearing clean pants shouldn't make you favor interviewee wearing dirty pants.

[chrl42]

A problem is, seeing modern Yixing collectors (mainland) vs antique/F1 collectors (HK/Taiwan) is like seeing Gushu lovers (Yunnanese say Puerh is best with 5-year storage) vs Laocha lovers. (I didn't say gingko didn't like old Yixings)

Both have logical reasons..because both are right..no one is wrong here. Problem only occurs if one becomes xenophobic or impose tea-totalitarianism

Kind of like regionalism or nationalism..like never-ending arguement between the Chinese vs the Japanese. Tea drinkers or sellers, close left eye and just open the other one for communities they belong to or a profit they are linked to. Maybe I've went too far..just hope to see someday, a seller who has guts come out and diss his own tea This has nothing to do with experienced drinkers of course, this can just get beginners confused as hell

[MarshalN]

Sorry Gingko, but I think your theory here is totally wrong. Lots of wenge shuipings won't pass this lid test, not well anyway. I'd take one of those over any of these new pots that pass this lid test any day.

The fact of the matter is the lid test really tests something that has NOTHING to do with how well a pot will brew tea. You never, ever need a tight lid for brewing good tea - yes, it might drip less, but that also has to do with how the spout pours, and not so much lid fit.Lid fit can be achieved with an industrial mold. It doesn't make it a good pot.

The blue part, that's exactly what I talked about IQ140 with dirty pants, unless you think there are many more wenge teapots than modern teapots available today.
The green part, my hands that use teapots don't agree with you.
I don't use any antique or collector level teapots, but mainly use high quality modern teapots with reasonable price - I believe that's the affordable range of most people and I hope they don't have the myth of getting a teapot with poor lid fit and just *wish* it's a wenge teapot.
The red part, I've seen this for quite a few times on teachat and I hope I'm not the only one feeling there is a logic problem for this argument - a stupid interviewee wearing clean pants shouldn't make you favor interviewee wearing dirty pants.

You know that poor lid fit doesn't mean dripping all over? Also, how are you using your pot such that the minute difference between a well fitting lid and a not so well fitting lid (we're not talking about totally unfit lid here - just one that won't pass the lid fit test with flying colours) is going to cause you problems with brewing? I have a hard time imagining under what circumstances you have those problems. I know you're a vendor with pots to sell, but really, we gotta look at things objectively.

As per your analogy, nor should we assume that clean pants are the only ones worth considering for the job, which is what the lid fit test is about.

[SilentChaos]

The blue part, that's exactly what I talked about IQ140 with dirty pants, unless you think there are many more wenge teapots than modern teapots available today.

Never mind Wengge pots. The majority of pots from the 80s and early 90s, both commercial and 'artisan' ones, won't pass the lid test, drip test or whatever with flying colors.