Noobie Tieguanyin Question

[chrl42]

Wyardley, my point is that when a producer uses 100% Qidan varietal, they would name it Qidan..when they use a pure Beidou varietal they would name it Beidou...not DHP.

Have you known 'DHP' varietal that is not Queshe, Qidan or Beidou?

[kyarazen]

i'm least interested in brands, so i suppose most of the discussion can be re-directed into the tea itself.

indeed "pure" DHP that i have had encountered so far are much milder but well layered. indeed what your friend's contact, Mr Li had said about blending the tea.. is similar to accounts and samples i had seen so far. its not simply the "origin" of the varietal only but the blending is done by taste

can anyone share on what is the profile of a proper Qi Dan, Beidou, Queshe that is well manufactured? what is the pure taste profile of these teas?

apparently to produce "da hong pao", there are 3-4 traits that are necessary and a blend of at least 3 teas to give the desired profile

While much DHP on the market is said to be blended, and while there may be some disagreement about what "pure" DHP is, my understanding is that proper DHP should be unblended, from specific varietals (most people would say qidan, but see below). I have heard it said that people who are used to blended DHP may find "pure" DHP a little mild tasting.

But of course, there's "dahongpao as tea", and then there's "dahongpao as brand". There's also the difficulty of knowing for sure whether what you have is what it's said to be, though blends of different types may be discernible from the leaf size / shape (I do not claim to be able to do this, but I don't doubt that there are people who can).

I have seen different claims in terms of what varietals people use for blended DHP. A tea friend of mine, who visited a tea farm outside the scenic area (who believe me, probably has plenty of customers who sell the stuff as genuine yancha) said this:
Mr. Li says his customers blend the 105 and Rougui to make Dahongpao, and also they sometimes use the Beidou #1.
http://amateursdethechinois.blogspot.co ... oct-2.html
I have had some of the Bei Dou #1 from this farm, and for the (quite low) price, it was quite nice.

One of the few (only) places I've seen the claim (in English, at least) about queshe is here:
http://www.sevencups.com/tea_shop/Que-S ... -2013.html
Due to its singular flavor, Sparrow’s Tongue is a vital component in most of the Big Red Robe wulong blends but is rarely sold unblended in the open market

Sorry @the_economist I don't know Queshe, Qidan is nice, there is also a company named Beidou, I heard it is the company owner who invented this variety.

See above paragraph re: queshe.

I think beidou isn't a company; beidou #1 is a varietal, claimed by some to be the "true" original DHP bush. The only stuff I've seen about this in English (on Hou De's blog) is gone now; I think you can read Chinese, so you may want to search for 姚月明.

Don't know how accurate all the information is, but see, e.g.,
http://baike.baidu.com/subview/1059783/6287547.htm

[wyardley]

[few edits for content and clarity]
This is getting pretty specific, and probably deserves a thread of its own, as this has virtually nothing to do with the original question.

Wyardley, my point is that when a producer uses 100% Qidan varietal, they would name it Qidan..when they use a pure Beidou varietal they would name it Beidou...not DHP.

I think if a producer is trying to emphasize that they're using a particular varietal, they may label it explicitly as such. But to answer your question, I would say that most tea vendors just sell their tea as dahongpao. Some vendors will also specify that it's, for example, unblended qidan. I have, less commonly, seen beidou #1 sold as DHP (see, for example, http://www.houdeasianart.com/index.php? ... 48cdff6097). Especially in the US market where most people have barely heard of dahongpao in the first place, I think it's only specialist vendors that would specify the exact varietal.

Have you known 'DHP' varietal that is not Queshe, Qidan or Beidou?

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear here; the point I was trying to make is that blended "dahongpao" is often said to contain other varietals that have no actual or purported relation to the DHP bushes.

I have rarely seen queshe mentioned until recently. I'm interested to hear more from credible / knowledgeable sources about whether or not it's considered an original DHP varietal. I have seen different stories, but only from vendors. I will say that, having tried the 7 cups queshe, it's definitely a taste that's immediately familiar somehow.

Personally, I tend to avoid tea labeled as "dahongpao", regardless of what claims the vendor makes. Often, you pay a premium for the name, and it's usually wise to be skeptical of any claims the vendor makes. That said, sometimes it is good tea, and when it is, I will buy it. Generally, I do not lose a lot of sleep over whether it's blended, or what specific varietal(s) it is, as long as it tastes good.

[wyardley]

ps - While the Hou De blog seems to be dead, the Wayback Machine does have a cache of the post he wrote about beidou #1:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080219054 ... .com/?p=98

(also, another piece at https://web.archive.org/web/20080219054 ... com/?p=102)

[chrl42]

Have you known 'DHP' varietal that is not Queshe, Qidan or Beidou?

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear here; the point I was trying to make is that blended "dahongpao" is often said to contain other varietals that have no actual or purported relation to the DHP bushes.

I have rarely seen queshe mentioned until recently. I'm interested to hear more from credible / knowledgeable sources about whether or not it's considered an original DHP varietal. I have seen different stories, but only from vendors. I will say that, having tried the 7 cups queshe, it's definitely a taste that's immediately familiar somehow.

Personally, I tend to avoid tea labeled as "dahongpao", regardless of what claims the vendor makes. Often, you pay a premium for the name, and it's usually wise to be skeptical of any claims the vendor makes. That said, sometimes it is good tea, and when it is, I will buy it. Generally, I do not lose a lot of sleep over whether it's blended, or what specific varietal(s) it is, as long as it tastes good.

I am merely meaning the mother bushes grown on a cliff...

It seems they have already examined or compared those some 4 bushes, probably with the approval of Wuyi Star company then (who has the ownership for the scenic area including the red-letter cliff.

You can even check 2 bushes (Qidan and Beidou) even from Baike and the other bush (Queshe) was lately confirmed I heard. But I am no knowledgeable much on this field. For better info, I'd also appreciated.

[Tead Off]

Personally, I tend to avoid tea labeled as "dahongpao", regardless of what claims the vendor makes. Often, you pay a premium for the name, and it's usually wise to be skeptical of any claims the vendor makes. That said, sometimes it is good tea, and when it is, I will buy it. Generally, I do not lose a lot of sleep over whether it's blended, or what specific varietal(s) it is, as long as it tastes good.

I agree 100%.

[ABx]

I think beidou isn't a company; beidou #1 is a varietal, claimed by some to be the "true" original DHP bush. The only stuff I've seen about this in English (on Hou De's blog) is gone now; I think you can read Chinese, so you may want to search for 姚月明.

My understanding (and I believe this has been confirmed elsewhere) is that the three varieties are different clones from the mother bushes. A scientist was trying different clones to come up with the ones that most closely resembled the originals, and those were the ones most favored, with Bei Dou (#1 refers to the numbering of the Bei Dou clones being used -- the first one is the one that stuck) being the closest of them all. As with all yancha, where it's grown on the mountain also factors into the name of the tea.

As you say, though, whether it's called by the individual strain name or just "DHP" is going to depend a lot on the vendor and their target market. Some will call any yancha "DHP." However, there are long-time drinkers that have never heard the name "Bei Dou." That kind of thing only tends to matter to geeky and pedantic tea enthusiasts that spend as much time (or more) reading about tea as drinking it.

[ABx]

indeed "pure" DHP that i have had encountered so far are much milder but well layered. indeed what your friend's contact, Mr Li had said about blending the tea.. is similar to accounts and samples i had seen so far. its not simply the "origin" of the varietal only but the blending is done by taste

How many have you had, though? Even if all farms were growing the same clones, weather, geography, harvesting, and processing are all going to affect the tea. Until you've had a lot of them, with reliable background info, it's going to be difficult. I can say that the Qi Dan I've had tended to be more fragrant than Bei Dou, but I've also had examples that were the other way around. There was also a year in the mid 2000s in which yancha in general was a lot more fragrant. It's made more complicated by the fact that vendors don't always have the best information -- I've seen some that think that all "real" DHP is exclusively Bei Dou.

[kyarazen]

How many have you had, though? Even if all farms were growing the same clones, weather, geography, harvesting, and processing are all going to affect the tea. Until you've had a lot of them, with reliable background info, it's going to be difficult. I can say that the Qi Dan I've had tended to be more fragrant than Bei Dou, but I've also had examples that were the other way around. There was also a year in the mid 2000s in which yancha in general was a lot more fragrant. It's made more complicated by the fact that vendors don't always have the best information -- I've seen some that think that all "real" DHP is exclusively Bei Dou.

its only difficult without guidance and without clear information. i came to understand from a fujian teashop owner based in beijing that they do want to divulge too much knowledge on certain teas as it makes it easier to blend and also pass on a tea under a different name.

and many merchants do not seem to let the "fire" from the roast recede, with the roasty note occluding some aromatics and the profile development of the tea.

regular electric re-roasting is done annually too, with the tea becoming sweeter, smoother with declining florals and blurring of profile with every re-roast. recently encountered a merchant with an excessively re-roasted tie lo han.. he said he brought in too much when the harvest/price was good and it didnt sell well. reroasted yearly to prevent it from going sour.

[ABx]

How many have you had, though? Even if all farms were growing the same clones, weather, geography, harvesting, and processing are all going to affect the tea. Until you've had a lot of them, with reliable background info, it's going to be difficult. I can say that the Qi Dan I've had tended to be more fragrant than Bei Dou, but I've also had examples that were the other way around. There was also a year in the mid 2000s in which yancha in general was a lot more fragrant. It's made more complicated by the fact that vendors don't always have the best information -- I've seen some that think that all "real" DHP is exclusively Bei Dou.

its only difficult without guidance and without clear information. i came to understand from a fujian teashop owner based in beijing that they do want to divulge too much knowledge on certain teas as it makes it easier to blend and also pass on a tea under a different name.

and many merchants do not seem to let the "fire" from the roast recede, with the roasty note occluding some aromatics and the profile development of the tea.

regular electric re-roasting is done annually too, with the tea becoming sweeter, smoother with declining florals and blurring of profile with every re-roast. recently encountered a merchant with an excessively re-roasted tie lo han.. he said he brought in too much when the harvest/price was good and it didnt sell well. reroasted yearly to prevent it from going sour.

You're getting tea from the original bushes at every harvest?

Technically DHP is less than a few generations from the mother bushes; after that it becomes "xiao hong pao." Of course the first generation Bei Dou is a clone from the mother plants -- it's also often considered the least fragrant of them, and since it was chosen as "the closest match" to the originals, bei dou is often what they're talking about in these instances. To be real DHP instead of bei dou (or the others) also requires that it's grown in the orignal location on the mountain -- the differences being a big part of why the the three clone strains have different names, despite being genetically the same (or very close) as the original. So the first and second gen bei dou clones are technically "real DHP," but so are the first couple generations of Qi Dan.

And yes, I'm aware of the need to let roasted teas settle. That's entirely beside the point -- which is that you can be given a "real" DHP that wouldn't have any relevance to the differences between the original DHP and the three later clone strains (because it actually is one of those three clone strains). The problem is that real DHP that isn't one of the three clone strains would be very hard to come by, and probably not from a common tea shop.

Even if you do account for all these things, one or two examples could be a fluke. Blending is a common way of increasing fragrance, but a highly skilled producer may not need to resort to blending. Some may even be making them to a different standard. Certainly the blends *tend* to have more fragance, but some of that may even be how they produce it; the single most fragrant tea I've had to date was a qi dan, although a later one from the same vendor and producer was much less so (same with other yancha). The only real way to compare two (or more) strains with certainty would be to get the teas from the same producer on the same harvest.

Not really disagreeing with you, though; just pointing out that these names get used in a few different ways -- especially with DHP, because the name carries value. That vendor could be one of the ones that consider bei dou to be the "only real" DHP. As with so many things with tea, information can be correct but not complete.