Uneven colour on a Shigaraki kyusu

[thirst]

You didn’t buy this pot to satisfy the aesthetic sensibilities of Chinese potters, but I don’t think you bought it to satisfy those of Japanese potters, either. You bought this pot to satisfy YOUR aesthetic sensibility. You are the arbiter of your own taste.

[Pig Hog]

I'm going to guess that the wabi nature of shigaraki yaki comes predominantly from the rough and natural appearance of the clay, whereas much of the wabi nature of Banko yaki is due to their simple and refined design...? Obviously as the yakimono in question are both made by Tachi Masaki, I would expect a degree of overlap in the style.

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong!

[Tead Off]

I'm going to guess that the wabi nature of shigaraki yaki comes predominantly from the rough and natural appearance of the clay, whereas much of the wabi nature of Banko yaki is due to their simple and refined design...? Obviously as the yakimono in question are both made by Tachi Masaki, I would expect a degree of overlap in the style.

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong!

But, Yixing is simple and refined, but in the eyes of wabi-ists, it ain't got that swing. I also don't feel that Banko work is anywhere near as refined as Yixing. From what I've seen, Tokoname kyusu certainly are more refined than Banko work, in general. Are you associating rustic and wabi? Surely, there is another element thrown in to make something wabi. I'd love a wabi-ist to verbalize what that is.

[Arioche]

I've talked to the person again, and we have come to an understanding of sorts. He agrees that there isn't really anything comparable to a Shigaraki pot, so what makes an 'ideal' pot is hard to define, but he maintains that, as a seller or a collector, the difference is big enough to turn him away.

I like the pot the way it is because I'm a user and I'm not intending on selling.

[Chip]

I've talked to the person again, and we have come to an understanding of sorts. He agrees that there isn't really anything comparable to a Shigaraki pot, so what makes an 'ideal' pot is hard to define, but he maintains that, as a seller or a collector, the difference is big enough to turn him away.

Thank goodness ... imagine if the Chinese Yixing market turned its attention to the Japanese Kyusu market in earnest!!!

I am joking, yet this also has a degree of reality to it as well. I have watched as many of us as the Chinese teaware market has exploded with the increase in disposable income in China ... Japan on the other hand has experienced skewered the supply and demand over the years (supposedly partly due to China) forcing the closing of many kilns. Yet I have to wonder if TeaChat has helped a bit ...

Toru's spin on the decline ... sorry if I am on a rabbit trail.

The Sad Tale of the Disappearing Teapot

In years gone by Japanese people took pride in using the best tea-ware when brewing green tea, not only when performing the tea ceremony but also when preparing everyday refreshment. Sturdy cast iron kettles for boiling water, beautifully crafted teapots and exquisite teacups were the norm rather than the exception. As time went by and lives became more hectic, convenience took the place of the slow life. People no longer spent time at the local tea seller selecting their favorite brand and savoring the tea-making process from beginning to end. Tea bags became popular and all kinds of tea became readily available in plastic bottled form. While this meant that a larger number of people were being exposed to a greater variety of teas, it also signaled a decline in brewing tea at home. We at Artistic Nippon like to believe that there is still a place for the values of old in today’s world. For us, the beauty of Tokoname teapots symbolize these values. Each piece is individually crafted by expert craftsmen to be perfectly balanced, pleasing to the eye and above all easy to use. Constant use over a long period of time leads to an improvement in the tea’s taste and the exterior grows more lustrous. For how many of today’s cheaper, mass produced teapots can the same be said?

As demand decreases, the number of craftsmen also diminishes, perhaps leading eventually to the disappearance of high quality tea-ware from the market.

Help stem this trend and participate in keeping the old tea traditions alive by acquiring your own special Tokoname piece. Considering the superb craftsmanship involved in their production and their functionability, our Tokoname teapots are offered at a very reasonable price. Avail yourself of this excellent opportunity to experience the classic Japanese values we here at Artisic Nippon strive to preserve.

[Chip]

The poster hasn't used his pot yet, so the difference in color has nothing to do with tea being brewed in it. It came out of the kiln that way. You're talking about something completely different, in this case.

I believe the OP mentions in his first post that he has been using the kyusu for dark oolong.

I interpret wabi sabi perhaps differently than some. I look at two fundamental elements from which a wide array of further evaluation can be drawn.

Age, generally not brand new
The state of imperfection ... obviously a wide open element

So even a once perfect Tokoname kyusu can exhibit wabi sabi over time, though it is never to the degree of even a newer Hagi.

My older shiggy kyusu from Hojo exhibits wabi sabi in my eye ... but a yixing collector may simply say it is flawed due to discoloration. I think with these shiggies, it is impossible to keep them looking like new ... regardless of what new was.

[Tead Off]

The poster hasn't used his pot yet, so the difference in color has nothing to do with tea being brewed in it. It came out of the kiln that way. You're talking about something completely different, in this case.

I believe the OP mentions in his first post that he has been using the kyusu for dark oolong.

I interpret wabi sabi perhaps differently than some. I look at two fundamental elements from which a wide array of further evaluation can be drawn.

Age, generally not brand new
The state of imperfection ... obviously a wide open element

So even a once perfect Tokoname kyusu can exhibit wabi sabi over time, though it is never to the degree of even a newer Hagi.

My older shiggy kyusu from Hojo exhibits wabi sabi in my eye ... but a yixing collector may simply say it is flawed due to discoloration. I think with these shiggies, it is impossible to keep them looking like new ... regardless of what new was.

Yes, my mistake. But the photos he posted were from Hojo's site showing the discoloration. I was trying to point out that it wasn't the brewing that was causing the difference in color.

Is age one of the factors that makes something wabi? I would never have thought that. I wonder what others think.

Imperfection is certainly a broad topic. Deliberate imperfection of an artistic nature? A mistake? Sloppiness? Funky? Wow, where to begin? haha.

For me, Hagi is often an expression of wabi. But, wabi should contain an artfulness, no? Some things are just dull and dead. Others have a life. Where is the wabi located?

[Arioche]

I DO believe the colour difference was there before I even started using it, but I cannot be sure.

I'm actually very curious as to what 'wabi' means. To me, this has been a very interesting discussion.

[blairswhitaker]

The poster hasn't used his pot yet, so the difference in color has nothing to do with tea being brewed in it. It came out of the kiln that way. You're talking about something completely different, in this case.

I believe the OP mentions in his first post that he has been using the kyusu for dark oolong.

I interpret wabi sabi perhaps differently than some. I look at two fundamental elements from which a wide array of further evaluation can be drawn.

Age, generally not brand new
The state of imperfection ... obviously a wide open element

So even a once perfect Tokoname kyusu can exhibit wabi sabi over time, though it is never to the degree of even a newer Hagi.

My older shiggy kyusu from Hojo exhibits wabi sabi in my eye ... but a yixing collector may simply say it is flawed due to discoloration. I think with these shiggies, it is impossible to keep them looking like new ... regardless of what new was.

Yes, my mistake. But the photos he posted were from Hojo's site showing the discoloration. I was trying to point out that it wasn't the brewing that was causing the difference in color.

Is age one of the factors that makes something wabi? I would never have thought that. I wonder what others think.

Imperfection is certainly a broad topic. Deliberate imperfection of an artistic nature? A mistake? Sloppiness? Funky? Wow, where to begin? haha.

For me, Hagi is often an expression of wabi. But, wabi should contain an artfulness, no? Some things are just dull and dead. Others have a life. Where is the wabi located?

Wabi is a big can of worms...

age can certainly extend a strong feeling of wabi to something,
though alone it does not create a sense of wabi, an object used daily and meticulously cared for exhibits wabi, especially wood, ceramic, leather, bamboo... however an item that has been sealed behind glass for all it's life may be old but show no signs of use.

Imperfection isn't wabi it's self, it's knowing how and when to appreciate something imperfect that elevates it to wabi. It's knowing that imperfection is the inherent nature of things and accepting it rather than fighting it in pursuit of the unattainable ideals of perfection.

personally this is why I don't find Yixing to be wabi, it seems as though it is constantly striving for a symmetrical and balanced perfection. Yixing is too labored over, wabi mustn't come from extraneous scrutiny, it must be spontaneous and and have a sense of freedom. I like Yixing pots for there practical nature, but that very nature is what prevents them from being wabi, they feel as though they are measured and calipered down to the millimeter with no freedom for spontaneity. the clay is strict formula the firing process is a strict formula as well, in the wabi kiln elements of fire are given more freedom to create unknown outcomes. the finished piece may have throwing lines and tool marks, indicators of how it was made and what processes went into it. Yixing is considered less and less valuable the more tool marks and seams are visible.

Masaki pots to me exhibit wabi in the way that all modern banko pots do, the use of the clay is a factor the shigaraki clay is more wabi but the "purple clay" is also wabi, it's a rather new innovation in the world of banko. they are also made fast and retain the hand of the maker. Most banko was very precise and traditionally glazed and very ornate, but not long ago the purple clay was adopted. Masaki also shows his influence of "furyu" or "floating in the wind philosophy" this was a counterpoint to wabi, and it is exemplified by a refined, elegant, sophisticated, and somewhat decedent style. It was brought into prominence by the sencha-do movement. over time it began to be influenced by the wabi philosophy and not merely a striking counterpoint, in modern times the two outlooks create and interesting interplay in Japan.

I'm too tired to go on anymore about it, you may want to quiz John Baymore he knows his way around the wabi ideal.

[Teaism]

I bought a few shiggy from the recent batch and enjoy using them thoroughly. The uneven color is almost unnoticeable. They looks even to me. I have the earlier 1st and second batch of shiggy and I believe this is the 3rd batch. All of them have their own personality and character.

The shiggy definitively have the wabi sabi feel. For me personally wabi sabi is something that I feel rather than see, being at peace with something personal and humble over time. A good article on it, which is also related to tea, can be found here: http://nobleharbor.com/tea/chado/WhatIsWabi-Sabi.htm

Cheers!

[BW85]

The shiggy definitively have the wabi sabi feel. For me personally wabi sabi is something that I feel rather than see, being at peace with something personal and humble over time. A good article on it, which is also related to tea, can be found here: http://nobleharbor.com/tea/chado/WhatIsWabi-Sabi.htm

Cheers!

It was mentioned earlier that yixings aren't wabi-sabi and I was inclined to agree, but after reading that article my understanding of the term has shifted a bit. I would say a long time used and loved yixing could definitely become so in a very true sense.

Thanks for the article

[kyarazen]

hehe. reminds me of marcel theroux running around japan in search of "wabi-sabi"

[Tead Off]

Wabi is a big can of worms...

age can certainly extend a strong feeling of wabi to something,
though alone it does not create a sense of wabi, an object used daily and meticulously cared for exhibits wabi, especially wood, ceramic, leather, bamboo... however an item that has been sealed behind glass for all it's life may be old but show no signs of use.

Imperfection isn't wabi it's self, it's knowing how and when to appreciate something imperfect that elevates it to wabi. It's knowing that imperfection is the inherent nature of things and accepting it rather than fighting it in pursuit of the unattainable ideals of perfection.

personally this is why I don't find Yixing to be wabi, it seems as though it is constantly striving for a symmetrical and balanced perfection. Yixing is too labored over, wabi mustn't come from extraneous scrutiny, it must be spontaneous and and have a sense of freedom. I like Yixing pots for there practical nature, but that very nature is what prevents them from being wabi, they feel as though they are measured and calipered down to the millimeter with no freedom for spontaneity. the clay is strict formula the firing process is a strict formula as well, in the wabi kiln elements of fire are given more freedom to create unknown outcomes. the finished piece may have throwing lines and tool marks, indicators of how it was made and what processes went into it. Yixing is considered less and less valuable the more tool marks and seams are visible.

Masaki pots to me exhibit wabi in the way that all modern banko pots do, the use of the clay is a factor the shigaraki clay is more wabi but the "purple clay" is also wabi, it's a rather new innovation in the world of banko. they are also made fast and retain the hand of the maker. Most banko was very precise and traditionally glazed and very ornate, but not long ago the purple clay was adopted. Masaki also shows his influence of "furyu" or "floating in the wind philosophy" this was a counterpoint to wabi, and it is exemplified by a refined, elegant, sophisticated, and somewhat decedent style. It was brought into prominence by the sencha-do movement. over time it began to be influenced by the wabi philosophy and not merely a striking counterpoint, in modern times the two outlooks create and interesting interplay in Japan.

Indeed, a huge can of worms. There is tremendous room for disagreement and subjective interpretations.

Age, patina, etc., I think has more to do with sabi from the Japanese POV. The imperfection of wabi is an independent quality that can be interpreted in myriad ways, not all of them reflecting aesthetic ideals. I think you point that out very well.

Regarding Yixing, I think you point out well the direction that Yixing strives for. However, it is through this perfection, that new forms and elements emerge from the master craftsmen's studios that give new life to the form. Normally, you cannot find this excellence in design in a standard shuiping even though function may be at its height with this design. Form and function must continue to meet to create a very high standard of Yixing pot. It's not just the un-flawed surface of the form that is prized, otherwise slip-cast pots would reign supreme for being flawless. Yixing is a system that has been developed over a few centuries to create an ideal vessel for brewing tea. A master pot should exhibit not only flawless execution, but superior and innovative design. Combine that with extraordinary clay that has been mined locally, and a sort of magic happens. Spontaneity is only one aspect in a process of creation. You need a foundation for spontaneity to express itself, namely the mastery of the tools at an artists disposal.

Whether Masaki's pots are wabi or not is a debate I will leave alone. Certainly, the Shigaraki pots he makes look more wabi due to the nature of the clay and its rough appearance. But, compare his to Bizen teapots, and I think the difference in wabi becomes very apparent, both in design, firing, and concept. Of course, this is just my opinion. Even with Hagi, the creative mix of the porous clay with the glazing techniques can create a tremendous sense of wabi. In the arts, it is an added sense of the human touch to create a new form. In fact, imperfection does not really exist and neither does perfection. But, fun to talk about.

[theredbaron]

personally this is why I don't find Yixing to be wabi, it seems as though it is constantly striving for a symmetrical and balanced perfection. Yixing is too labored over, wabi mustn't come from extraneous scrutiny, it must be spontaneous and and have a sense of freedom. I like Yixing pots for there practical nature, but that very nature is what prevents them from being wabi, they feel as though they are measured and calipered down to the millimeter with no freedom for spontaneity. the clay is strict formula the firing process is a strict formula as well, in the wabi kiln elements of fire are given more freedom to create unknown outcomes. the finished piece may have throwing lines and tool marks, indicators of how it was made and what processes went into it. Yixing is considered less and less valuable the more tool marks and seams are visible.

I think you are not entirely correct in your assessment of Yixing pots. There are different ways of valuing Yixing Pots. While your statement may be true on collectors of famous artist pots, collectors/tea lovers who collect/use older pots such as CR Shui Ping value not so much the perfection, but a amalgam of clay used/practicability, and also the imperfections due to the process and very much the patina that comes with years of use.
Rougher connecting lines, imperfectly smoothed interiors in some pots which contrast with refined exterior have a beauty in itself. Also older pots which were fired in dragon kilns leave much room for unintended effects (often though on a much smaller scale).

While i have never really explored the deep philosophies of Wabi, i think some Yixing pots may very well suit the little i have read/learned of this concept. CR Shui ping, as with other mass produced Yixing (of the past) for example, were made by mostly unknown craftsmen who for years honed their skills, were utilitarian and often display many imperfections, and also grow in beauty, and transform with use. Compare that, for example, to old Korean tea bowls so highly priced for their Wabi - bowls that were made by anonymous craftsmen, are rough, utilitarian, and transformed by use into something very special and unique.

On the other hand - just using rougher Shigaraki clay does not necessarily make a piece "Wabi" by itself. It needs more than that.

[Arioche]

I bought a few shiggy from the recent batch and enjoy using them thoroughly. The uneven color is almost unnoticeable. They looks even to me. I have the earlier 1st and second batch of shiggy and I believe this is the 3rd batch. All of them have their own personality and character.

The shiggy definitively have the wabi sabi feel. For me personally wabi sabi is something that I feel rather than see, being at peace with something personal and humble over time. A good article on it, which is also related to tea, can be found here: http://nobleharbor.com/tea/chado/WhatIsWabi-Sabi.htm

Cheers!

Just wondering, what teas do you generally use your Shiggies for brewing? In your opinion, would it be fine for yanchas?