Ivory, really?

[jayinhk]

The wording is exactly how sellers get around the ban. I just reported five or six chaire. Beautiful tea caddies, but I can't let the sale of modern ivory get by me without reporting it.

Here in HK, hundreds of tusks are seized every year en route to China, where the demand is absolutely insatiable.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/19/60440 ... tudy-shows

[bonescwa]

Personally, I understand both the positions of those who are opposed to this kind of objects, since as you rightly said, the elephant is often hunted only for it.
I understand, however, those who buy antique pieces made of ivory, often with a piece of history and tradition behind it, since it is legal in many countries, behind certification, without the risk of encouraging the hunt, at least theoretically.
I understand less, those who buy modern made pieces, where the incentive for this activity is quite obvious.

What is the opinion of the other TC's members?

its a pretty sticky debate actually, almost impossible to come to consensus. just as sticky as those whale/dolphin hunts in europe and in japan, and the continued existence of these practices being justified as cultural preservation.

it is apparent that humans tend to ascribe different values to different types of life, i.e the life of a whale is more important / valuable than that of a tiny anchovy. similarly, the life of an endangered creature is more important / valuable than a creature in tremendously large abundance. etc etc. the list can go on.

without human influence, the food chain still goes on, i.e. elephants will still be hunted by other wild life, what if a rare tiger was found/caught gnawing on a elephant? these creatures do not live forever either, they will also grow old and die, rot and decompose, leaving behind stuffs like bone etc that do not break down well.


a side note.. i've taken a recent interest in bone items.. particularly human maybe human material wouldnt be as bad as endangered creature stuffs?

Preach, I can't stand hypocrisy. It's ok to kill animals for food but not ok for fur/ivory/etc? Please.

[BW85]

a side note.. i've taken a recent interest in bone items.. particularly human maybe human material wouldnt be as bad as endangered creature stuffs?

You are one interesting cookie

[jayinhk]

i've taken a recent interest in bone items.. particularly human maybe human material wouldnt be as bad as endangered creature stuffs?

Anyone who poaches/attempts to poach endangered species deserves to be shot down. I wouldn't mind some chopsticks made from a poacher's femur.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Kenya.html

[BW85]

?
Preach, I can't stand hypocrisy. It's ok to kill animals for food but not ok for fur/ivory/etc? Please.

I think we should at least be hesitant about wiping a species out of existence. If there was an abundance of elephants and they were being hunted humanely and used resourcefully it would be another story

[blairswhitaker]

I feel as if I have been drawn into this conversation, if not entirely voluntarily, but at least on the accord of what I have posted.

first a quick correction, chip posted that chaire are used for usucha, in fact they are exclusively used for koicha.

yes the lids are made of ivory , I have been to countless chaji's and chakai's in Japan and yes they are AWAYAY'S made from ivory with no exemptions, I have never seen one with a lacquered or ceramic lid, someone who has had experience with chado here in Japan feel free to include your personal experiences. Have you ever seen a chaire with anything but an Ivory lid?

I am not trying to sway anyones personal opinion on the use of zoge either pro or con, I just want to present some information here.

laws are different in different countries as well as social customs, this is something I think we all know. such as tonight, I got out of a chakai and went out for uchiage, I ate a lot of horse meat tonight, something my brethren in america are unlikely to do, at least on purpose.

I don't know what online sellers are doing, but in japan if you buy a chaire with a resin lid it is considered "keiko dogu" or something that is only suitable for practice or "student use" but would never be acceptable in a "real" chaji or chakai.

in regards to being a replacement lid, that is simply not true. if you know chado history, the fact is these were originally imported from china and they had lids made form Ivory, this is very well recorded and their is a lot of history behind it. it's not an "accident" or a "replacement". Ivory is valued extremely heavily by shinto practitioners as well as those in the zen clergy. I hate to break it to anyone in the west, particularly America, but I go to zen temples regulary and they have tons of stuff made form ivory including chaire, many zen temples are associated with chado and receive a lot of funding from chado organizations, they own, use, and display ivory objects. in fact our urasenke Oiemoto, Zabosai is an ordained zen priest , just like his father and every other sen before him going back 16 generations to sen no rikyu, the man who is responsible for anyone in the west knowing anything about chado. so as far as it being un-zen like, then I am sorry but you may have formed your own inaccurate options on what zen is or is not, and as far as it being un-tea like these are again ideas you either formed on you own or from resources I am not privy to, but Ivory items have been associated with tea since is inception it china. I am not trying to incite anger or ire in anyone, I am just trying to provide some historical context, mainly being that in the west tea is a "new" thing but in asia it is very old and has a LOT of history and context, and it is best you understand some of that context before subjecting your opinions so unabashedly.

In regard to the chashaku I posted, that one was at least two hundred years old, I have not personally seen any contemporary examples that are as large as a full size chashaku.

and as a side note not all ivory comes from elephants.

[Chip]

Blair, yes, sorry I meant Koicha. TBH, I was intensely upset when I was posting. I had read your informative post on the use of chaire and natsume which was enlightening, thank you! And thank you for the informative post above as well. This is enlightening.

When I said unzen-like and untea-like, I did so to get notice, which it has. I view it this way. When I sit at my tea table, I see peace and harmony. I see items of clay and bamboo and sakura which are very abundant. There are no animal products at the tea table. Peace and tranquility reign supreme.

If there was a piece of ivory at my tea table, this would ... destabilize the tranquility for me, it would never be acceptable knowing such a regal animal was slaughtered solely for this vanity and left to rot so I could have this piece of his soul for my pleasure. Elephants are social animals, so the killing surely has a ripple effect. I would also know that having this at my table has helped support vile poachers. It would be like having a vile of heroin or coke there, but much worse.

I understand the historicity of the use of ivory by various cultures, most of which have now abandoned the use completely. I am ... angered by the continued use of ivory from elephants or any other animal that is killed for its tusks only, whether it is done legally or not.

In the case of elephant ivory, this becomes perhaps more crystal clear as they are the largest living land dwelling animal still not extinct. Everything is ... enlarged. I think the vast majority of people would like to keep it that way.

Social change often begins with one person making a stand and getting noticed. Just because a society has a history of use, this does not make it appropriate just like the Holocaust was not appropriate. If nobody stands up to it, it will never change. Just like we must never forget the Holocaust, we must also never forget where that piece of ivory came from and how it came to be ...

The excuse that "everyone is doing it" can never make it right.

[Chip]

As for me, I will contact vendors that I have used that I feel sell ivory, all in Japan. I will inform them that I will not shop with them again until there is an about face ... and they stop selling ivory. I will endeavor to explain why this is so offensive to me and so many other people.

I will post names of vendors here who sell ivory and encourage other members to do so as well. I will encourage members to boycott these vendors, and let them know why they are being boycotted.

This list will be posted at the beginning of this topic.

[William]

As for me, I will contact vendors that I have used that I feel sell ivory, all in Japan. I will inform them that I will not shop with them again until there is an about face ... and they stop selling ivory.

I will post names of vendors here who sell ivory and encourage other members to do so as well. I will encourage members to boycott these vendors, and let them know why they are being boycotted.

This list will be posted at the beginning of this topic.

Just a suggestion, Chip.
If you want to do this, that is declaring that you want to boycott vendors that are selling items that are legal in the country of origin, publishing the names explicitly and and encouraging this boycott to other private individuals, keep it for yourself, because it is not exactly legal; at least, here in EU countries.

[Chip]

As for me, I will contact vendors that I have used that I feel sell ivory, all in Japan. I will inform them that I will not shop with them again until there is an about face ... and they stop selling ivory.

I will post names of vendors here who sell ivory and encourage other members to do so as well. I will encourage members to boycott these vendors, and let them know why they are being boycotted.

This list will be posted at the beginning of this topic.

Just a suggestion, Chip.
If you want to do this, that is declaring that you want to boycott vendors that are selling items that are legal in the country of origin, publishing the names explicitly and and encouraging this boycott to other private individuals is not exactly legal; at least, here in EU countries.

Thank you, William!

It is legal to do so in the US as far as I know, but I would gladly be arrested if it was not ... how ironic would that be?!?

Make a stand, one person at a time ...

[bonescwa]

?
Preach, I can't stand hypocrisy. It's ok to kill animals for food but not ok for fur/ivory/etc? Please.

I think we should at least be hesitant about wiping a species out of existence. If there was an abundance of elephants and they were being hunted humanely and used resourcefully it would be another story

True

[Chip]

Lids listed as made of zoge are ivory.

I wrote two vendors, one replied. The response was so casual that obviously this is not ... controversial to him/her. Most of their chaire include zoge lids, and I should ask in advance to make sure I got one made of ivory (paraphrased).

I will ask further questions before posting further about this seller here.

However, if it is not illegal to trade/sell zoge in Japan, is it illegal for the seller to ship them out of the country or does this burden of responsibility fall solely on the buyer?

And I assume that it is illegal for someone in most countries to buy ivory from Japan and have it shipped to them?

The seller really should explicitly state, "You are buying ivory which is illegal in many countries. You should check your local customs regulations to avoid problems."

Had I bought a chaire up to yesterday, I would have unknowingly purchased and imported zoge/ivory into a country where it is illegal to do so.

[ethan]

blairswhitaker,

Thank you for your serious post. I was not saying that the ivory was a "replacement", but rather to my eyes it looked wrong, as if it were. For me, white ivory on top of colored ceramic, seems out of place & detracts from the potter's good work. I wrote that my impression was from an outsider, implying I don't care about tea ceremonies & tradition. (I care about the taste of tea & the beauty of teaware.) I understand that the ivory traditionally "belongs" there, but I don't like the look of it. I doubt that I am the only one w/ that reaction to colors that don't belong together.

[JBaymore]

FYI......... Ebay has a relatively recent stated policy against the selling of items of ivory or containing ivory. So the sellers now simply call it "zoge", the Japanese term, which EBay apparently can't translate (Japanese being so "inscruitable"). Or they use "obtuse" phrasing.

So EBay itself is only giving the issue lip service. Anyone who finds even antique ivory products is a massive issue, you should stop frequenting EBay itself. EBay is complicit by 'turning the other eye'.

I BELIEVE that there is an exemption on the import of ivory objects into the US IF the objects are really OLD. Very antique. Documentable. That is my understanding, but it might be incorrect.

Also FYI........ sometimes OLD ivory chaire lids are "recycled" onto newer chaire. Because of a sensitivity to the use of NEW ivory.

So given the discussion happening here...... should the huge number of museums that hold objects from Japan (and China) made of ivory and have them in their collections and often on display, no longer exhibit these works? And should they then destroy the pieces held in their collections?

Just looked this up. ( http://www.cbp.gov/travel/international ... restricted )From this we find that the US government is also complicit in the import and "support" of antique ivory products.

"You may import an object made of ivory if it is an antique. To be an antique the ivory must be at least 100 years old. You will need documentation that authenticates the age of the ivory. You may import other antiques containing wildlife parts with the same condition, but they must be accompanied by documentation proving they are at least 100 years old. Certain other requirements for antiques may apply.

If you plan to buy such things as tortoiseshell jewelry, or articles made from whalebone, ivory, skins or fur, contact the:

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Division of Law Enforcement
P.O. Box 3247
Arlington, VA 22203-3247
"

best,

....................john

[JBaymore]

Chip....... never believe that the lids that they SAY are koge on EBay actually ARE koge. Ebay runs by the slogan that there's a sucker born every minute. That is a way to not only get around the word "ivory" but ALSO to inflate the pricing for a chaire with a milk resin lid for the unsuspecting who can't tell real ivory from the resin substitutes.

"Honest... it is REAL ivory. I promise."


I've seen so-called Hamada Shoji pots on EBay all the time.... that aren't. But I also see that they sometimes SELL with high prices.

best,

..................john