my second pot (show off)

[the_winding_path]

I was told awhile back that real Zhuni in present day no longer exists.
So don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise.

Listen to what you are saying Ferg

[Ferg]

Listen to what you are saying Ferg

Thank you for reminding me. I realize I could have better supported my statement.

I stand by my original position there is no longer any zhuni clay in present day for excavation purposes. It was communicated to me that there are two types of zhuni recognized as zhuni, specifically Qing period zhuni and the early 90s ZhaoZhuang Zhuni. Is it possible that this ZZ clay has been stored away since this latter period for use in present day? Sure, I suppose it's within the realm of possibility.

You won't find me chasing after zhuni. I don't find it practical. Then again, I've pretty much moved away from Yixing altogether at this point, as the rabbit hole only goes deeper and gets more convoluted with the more I've read over time.

[jayinhk]

Modern zhuni, aka hongni! Nice classic shape. Are the 'stains' from use or did it come like that?

It did arrive in this condition.
Are we saying that this is not Zhauzhuang Zhuni?

China being China, that is a VERY common trade name for modern hongni that is processed to resemble zhuni. A real zhuni pot with today's clay is not something that would be readily available off the shelf. It would be a custom order and would be $$$ (more than old zhuni)!

There is plenty of so called zhaozhuang zhuni available on the Mainland. Is it zhuni? Nope. Will it make good tea? Absolutely

[dizzo]

Hmm..
I guess it is what it is and Im not sure what it is lol!
That is unfortunate. It wasnt particularly cheap (nor outragously expensive). It does make an excellent cup of tea, so thats good:)
Being that this is only my second pot, I was hoping to use it to learn identification and quality markers. Its no doubt well made, but I guess I shouldnt use it as a teaching tool for clay type.
How does one attain real zhuni? I know im gonna pay:)

[jayinhk]

Hmm..
I guess it is what it is and Im not sure what it is lol!
That is unfortunate. It wasnt particularly cheap (nor outragously expensive). It does make an excellent cup of tea, so thats good:)
Being that this is only my second pot, I was hoping to use it to learn identification and quality markers. Its no doubt well made, but I guess I shouldnt use it as a teaching tool for clay type.
How does one attain real zhuni? I know im gonna pay:)

Zhuni pots are around, but zhuni is the most elusive and widely faked of all the clays. It is also the most delicate of the clays and performs kind of like porcelain! I haven't yet tried a real lao zhuni pot. I have, however, handled hundreds of fakes! Some that cost more than lao zhuni.

Considering its performance lies somewhere between hongni and porcelain, supposedly, I just use hongni and porcelain! Modern zhuni tends to be higher fired than my 80s-90s hongni, so maybe it does indeed perform something like zhuni. It is a very different clay, structurally speaking, so it definitely doesn't perform exactly the same.

As an aside, I've found Japanese red clay pots to be excellent. They have their own zhuni/shudei hustle going on over there! I find I get more aroma with my darker, thinner Tokoname kyusu than with my smaller 'shudei' kyusu, so maybe we're all wasting our time chasing red clay!

I just bought some small stoneware and porcelain pots, 2017 made, that are made specifically for gongfucha. So far I like the way they perform, but they really mute nothing!

[chrl42]

This notion that all modern zhuni is hongni (processed) seems a bit ludicrous to me. This is my personal opinion. But if the original zhuni existed apart from hongni, then modern hongni shall exist apart from modern zhuni. If we start separating clays by era or mountain, then the idea of "modern hongni" is just as meaningless.

It's as silly as saying qingshuini has been extinct since green label, since there has been no qingshui produced since then quite like the HLS of early-mid F1.

It is plausible that most modern "zhuni" labeled pots are in actuality hongni played and processed to look like zhuni, but so are many of the other modern clays altered to look a certain way. Authentic or knock-off? That will be the haunting question of all modern pot purchases. That much more incentive to buy older. But if a pot performs and looks beautiful in ones eyes, that trumps most all else.

You are right, modern Zhuni is Zhuni, not Hongni.

Famous Xiao Mei Yao mine has been mined since 80s, there are Huanglongshan Zhuni mines as smaller position, even Zhaozhuang mine still has Zhuni leftovers.

Nowadays none-Yixing Zhunis have been exported and being used..this kind of clay has quite Zhuni-like character, some has iron oxide powder mixed in though.

Good Hongni is even harder to find, a fact, Factory-1 started to dope Hongnis cos good Hong
ni mine was almost extinct by 80s. Factory-1 didn't use Zhuni for pots is because it shrinks too much during firing, unsuitable to be used for making commercial pots.

The reason we rarely see QSN since the green label is because of appearance of Pin Zini (mixed-Zini), not because it went extinct. Early mine-4 Pin Zini (like jiazini) is what Grand Masters liked to use for pots..very high-quality!

[ethan]

As an aside, I've found Japanese red clay pots to be excellent. so maybe we're all wasting our time chasing red clay!

I just bought some small stoneware and porcelain pots, 2017 made, that are made specifically for gongfucha. So far I like the way they perform, but they really mute nothing!

I thought hobbies were meant to waste time, Jay!

A lot of Teachat's discussion is about teaware; &, most of that involves those who love the chase for pots to add to their collections. Great! However, questions that cannot be answered simply are a problem for those who don't enjoy the chase so much & seek a pot or two to enjoy their tea more.

E.g., if Jay wants to mute some specific characteristics of gongfucha, can he buy a specific type of pot to mute them?

(He has not asked the specific ?; probably for good reasons.)

In September I will seek superb gaoshan at a modest price. I want fresh green flavors that are light, a hint of sweetness, a touch of minerals, huigan..., & no bitterness (by my own standard). I think I will get some bitterness; yet, if the gaoshan is really wonderful, I'll buy some hoping there is a pot to mute it very well. Then, I will take that oolong to a master potter to see what his pots can do with it. Is there much of a chance that I will find a pot to do this?

[victoria3]

Ethan, part of the reason some of us keep collecting additional pots is the effect on selected teas varies quite a bit. Clays are not uniform, so no guarantee any effect will occur. For the enhancement you described my F1 mid 60-70's neiziwahong houhin does exactly what you are seeking. The neiziwahong is; inner layer of clay qingshuini zini purple clay, with a coat of hongni red clay (chuan-bu) on the outside. Basically, you'll need to try out different pots to see what if any beneficial effect results in your tea session.

[ethan]

. Clays are not uniform, so no guarantee any effect will occur. For the enhancement you described my F1 mid 60-70's neiziwahong houhin does exactly what you are seeking. The neiziwahong is; inner layer of clay qingshuini zini purple clay, with a coat of hongni red clay (chuan-bu) on the outside.

thanks, Victoria. Being able to refer to neiziwahong might help me communicate what I want when talking to potters and pottery vendors when selecting which pots to experiment with. If I can obtain a pot that works as your houhin does, I will be thrilled. Although, I am lucky enough to enjoy several teas, I still want to drink something like a dayuling or foushoushan that is not terribly expensive. The right pot might make this possible.

[jayinhk]

I personally would only use high fired red clay or porcelain for gaoshan. It has way too much complexity to mute it. Certain high fired zini clays also perform very well with gaoshan, but it depends on the clay and the firing. I like neiziwaihong for roasty Wuyicha and pu erh myself. It will work well with lower grade oolongs, but I find it too muting for fancy tea. I feel like muting good tea is a bit of a waste since if it isn't flawed, why mute any aspect of it?

Red clay can keep the heat up (important for gaoshan) without muting too much of the aroma and complexity.

[victoria3]

I personally would only use high fired red clay or porcelain for gaoshan. It has way too much complexity to mute it. Certain high fired zini clays also perform very well with gaoshan, but it depends on the clay and the firing. I like neiziwaihong for roasty Wuyicha and pu erh myself. It will work well with lower grade oolongs, but I find it too muting for fancy tea. I feel like muting good tea is a bit of a waste since if it isn't flawed, why mute any aspect of it?

Red clay can keep the heat up (important for gaoshan) without muting too much of the aroma and complexity.

I do not think this conversation was about muting complexity or aroma in high quality oolongs but rather smoothing out the rough edges on lower quality everyday oolongs. I would not use my neiziwaihong houhin for roasted oolong or pu'erh, different takes I assume.

[jayinhk]

I personally would only use high fired red clay or porcelain for gaoshan. It has way too much complexity to mute it. Certain high fired zini clays also perform very well with gaoshan, but it depends on the clay and the firing. I like neiziwaihong for roasty Wuyicha and pu erh myself. It will work well with lower grade oolongs, but I find it too muting for fancy tea. I feel like muting good tea is a bit of a waste since if it isn't flawed, why mute any aspect of it?

Red clay can keep the heat up (important for gaoshan) without muting too much of the aroma and complexity.

I do not think this conversation was about muting complexity or aroma in high quality oolongs but rather smoothing out the rough edges on lower quality everyday oolongs.

I personally only buy the best tea I can get my hands on when in Taiwan, and for the price paid, I want to taste everything The only Taiwanese tea I'd want to mute is pu erh aged over there, which gets the zini treatment.

The F1 houhins will definitely mute lower grade oolongs well and I had a surprisingly good experience with greener oolong in mine when I first got it, but I often find older F1 zini (and neiziwaihong) a bit too muting for more complex teas. Oddly older qingshuini seems to do much better with aromatic/complex teas and is less muting. Older QSN is the best all around clay IMO--it performs well with green tea all the way through to heicha.

I'm drinking 2016 chin shin oolong from Northern Thailand. This tea was really very nice when first purchased, but the flavor has dropped off over the last year. It is still pleasant, but without the osmanthus note it had when I first got it. It is also a caffeine bomb! Brewing in a 150ml modern zhuni si ting pot that is very high fired, but still seems to mute more than porcelain.

[victoria3]

I personally would only use high fired red clay or porcelain for gaoshan. It has way too much complexity to mute it. Certain high fired zini clays also perform very well with gaoshan, but it depends on the clay and the firing. I like neiziwaihong for roasty Wuyicha and pu erh myself. It will work well with lower grade oolongs, but I find it too muting for fancy tea. I feel like muting good tea is a bit of a waste since if it isn't flawed, why mute any aspect of it?

Red clay can keep the heat up (important for gaoshan) without muting too much of the aroma and complexity.

I do not think this conversation was about muting complexity or aroma in high quality oolongs but rather smoothing out the rough edges on lower quality everyday oolongs.

I personally only buy the best tea I can get my hands on when in Taiwan, and for the price paid, I want to taste everything The only Taiwanese tea I'd want to mute is pu erh aged over there, which gets the zini treatment.

The F1 houhins will definitely mute lower grade oolongs well and I had a surprisingly good experience with greener oolong in mine when I first got it, but I often find older F1 zini (and neiziwaihong) a bit too muting for more complex teas. Oddly older qingshuini seems to do much better with aromatic/complex teas and is less muting. Older QSN is the best all around clay IMO--it performs well with green tea all the way through to heicha.

I'm drinking 2016 chin shin oolong from Northern Thailand. This tea was really very nice when first purchased, but the flavor has dropped off over the last year. It is still pleasant, but without the osmanthus note it had when I first got it. It is also a caffeine bomb! Brewing in a 150ml modern zhuni si ting pot that is very high fired, but still seems to mute more than porcelain.

I rarely like using porcelain pots or gaiwans, for me they lack wabi sabi connection to the earth and leaves, but I do love fine antique eggshell porcelain for my drinking cups. I reserve my Qing Shui Ni for higher quality oolongs (as these pots are 110-80ml), and use my larger various sized Neiziwaihong houhin 350-230ml for oolongs that need to be enhanced /smoothed out, are lower grade, but are really very tasty early in the morning when I want hydration and am busy focused on the days tasks. To qualify my definition of lower grade oolongs is difficult but generally under $120lb usd, then medium to higher grades going up to $3,000lb usd.

[jayinhk]

I personally would only use high fired red clay or porcelain for gaoshan. It has way too much complexity to mute it. Certain high fired zini clays also perform very well with gaoshan, but it depends on the clay and the firing. I like neiziwaihong for roasty Wuyicha and pu erh myself. It will work well with lower grade oolongs, but I find it too muting for fancy tea. I feel like muting good tea is a bit of a waste since if it isn't flawed, why mute any aspect of it?

Red clay can keep the heat up (important for gaoshan) without muting too much of the aroma and complexity.

I do not think this conversation was about muting complexity or aroma in high quality oolongs but rather smoothing out the rough edges on lower quality everyday oolongs.

I personally only buy the best tea I can get my hands on when in Taiwan, and for the price paid, I want to taste everything The only Taiwanese tea I'd want to mute is pu erh aged over there, which gets the zini treatment.

The F1 houhins will definitely mute lower grade oolongs well and I had a surprisingly good experience with greener oolong in mine when I first got it, but I often find older F1 zini (and neiziwaihong) a bit too muting for more complex teas. Oddly older qingshuini seems to do much better with aromatic/complex teas and is less muting. Older QSN is the best all around clay IMO--it performs well with green tea all the way through to heicha.

I'm drinking 2016 chin shin oolong from Northern Thailand. This tea was really very nice when first purchased, but the flavor has dropped off over the last year. It is still pleasant, but without the osmanthus note it had when I first got it. It is also a caffeine bomb! Brewing in a 150ml modern zhuni si ting pot that is very high fired, but still seems to mute more than porcelain.

I rarely like using porcelain pots or gaiwans, for me they lack wabi sabi connection to the earth and leaves, but I do love fine antique eggshell porcelain for my drinking cups. I reserve my Qing Shui Ni for higher quality oolongs (as these pots are 110-80ml), and use my larger various sized Neiziwaihong houhin 350-230ml for oolongs that need to be enhanced /smoothed out, are lower grade, but are really very tasty early in the morning when I want hydration and am busy focused on the days tasks. To qualify my definition of lower grade oolongs is difficult but generally under $120lb usd, then medium to higher grades going up to $3,000lb usd.

Gotcha, the houhin is definitely suitable for lower grade stuff and is perfect for casual drinking! I like to compare tea in porcelain to clay regularly so I know what my clay is doing for my tea. Sometimes porcelain is the better option IMO!

[dizzo]

I personally would only use high fired red clay or porcelain for gaoshan. It has way too much complexity to mute it. Certain high fired zini clays also perform very well with gaoshan, but it depends on the clay and the firing. I like neiziwaihong for roasty Wuyicha and pu erh myself. It will work well with lower grade oolongs, but I find it too muting for fancy tea. I feel like muting good tea is a bit of a waste since if it isn't flawed, why mute any aspect of it?

Red clay can keep the heat up (important for gaoshan) without muting too much of the aroma and complexity.

I like to use a gaiwan sometimes and clay sometimes with my gaoshans. I find that the clay does take a bit of the creaminess out on the initial tasting, but this allows me to concentrate on some of the other notes that are covered by the creaminess.
Of course, that is what this pot was bought for in the first place, and why I chose it specifically for gaoshan