How to identify Yixing construction methods?

[chrl42]

That were some nice reviews, t4texas.

Nice Long Dan and Lian Zi as well.

As for stamp on the wall, I've no idea how they did manage to trim without hand-making. By the way, there is also a possibility of using a warped stamp after making (as opposed to before-making), actually used to fake as 'hand-made' pot (just one of faking methods such as drawing wrinkle or mixing with different particle to look like Zhuni).

I am not saying your pot used the faking stamp but then there is no reason to stamp on the wall cos it was devised to distinguish hand-making and half hand-making.

Plus clays of yours, just note 'real' DHP pots won't cost that cheap, most of DHP pots are one with iron red powder or Shi Huang contained for redness.

And Lian Zi (black pot) also seems to contain with oxide manganese for blackness but actually your photos didn't show the pot that clearly.

It's just my opinions, t4texas, no depression. Plus using industrial dyes or mixing clay (Ping Pei that is) are rather 'traditional' methods used as far as Qing dynasty. And you know, I am a guy who's more interested in learning than preaching so any advice would be welcomed.

[t4texas]

That were some nice reviews, t4texas.

Nice Long Dan and Lian Zi as well.

Thanks, Charles.

As for stamp on the wall, I've no idea how they did manage to trim without hand-making. By the way, there is also a possibility of using a warped stamp after making (as opposed to before-making), actually used to fake as 'hand-made' pot (just one of faking methods such as drawing wrinkle or mixing with different particle to look like Zhuni).

I am not saying your pot used the faking stamp but then there is no reason to stamp on the wall cos it was devised to distinguish hand-making and half hand-making.

How do you mean "how they did manage to trim without hand-making". Can you clarify or describe this? Also, what is a "warped stamp"?

My understanding is that the inside stamp is used to distinguish between pots made by the particular artist and ones made by someone else with a fake stamp on the exterior bottom. I had not heard that an artist is not allowed to use an inside stamp unless the pot is made without aid of templates/molds. But that's just my current level of understanding, which may improve in the next five minutes. Scott at YSLLC told me that they told him the DHP pots were hand made using some molding.

Plus clays of yours, just note 'real' DHP pots won't cost that cheap, most of DHP pots are one with iron red powder or Shi Huang contained for redness.

I had read something you wrote here about this recently. So how much does a true DHP clay pot cost?

And Lian Zi (black pot) also seems to contain with oxide manganese for blackness but actually your photos didn't show the pot that clearly.

I don't think I am going to get any better photos of the black pot, but I may try again later. If it does have iron oxide added, can you tell what the basic clay is? I believe I was told Zhu Ni (Zhuni).

It's just my opinions, t4texas, no depression. Plus using industrial dyes or mixing clay (Ping Pei that is) are rather 'traditional' methods used as far as Qing dynasty. And you know, I am a guy who's more interested in learning than preaching so any advice would be welcomed.

Thanks, Charles. I always value your knowledge and comments. Yixing pots are complex creations. I understand that really knowing the clays on the part of the master clay processors takes decades. So I need all the help I can get to understand these pots just a little better than I did yesterday.

[Salsero]

Nice post, t4texas, and very helpful discussion between you and charl42. Thanks to both of you for doing so much to further out knowledge about pots. I for one am bowled over at the quality of the Teapot Gallery products!

[chrl42]

How do you mean "how they did manage to trim without hand-making". Can you clarify or describe this? Also, what is a "warped stamp"?

My understanding is that the inside stamp is used to distinguish between pots made by the particular artist and ones made by someone else with a fake stamp on the exterior bottom. I had not heard that an artist is not allowed to use an inside stamp unless the pot is made without aid of templates/molds. But that's just my current level of understanding, which may improve in the next five minutes. Scott at YSLLC told me that they told him the DHP pots were hand made using some molding..

Difference between hand-made and half hand-made is,

With half hand-made method, the stamp will be erased during trimming procedure (cos it's shaped in a mould so trimming is a must procesdure), unless it's stamped after trimming - those are how they are done on half hand-made pots to look like hand-made pot. Then the stamp should be curved stamp cos wall is curved. On the other hand, with hand-making the stamp is put before shaping when clay is flat.

I had read something you wrote here about this recently. So how much does a true DHP clay pot cost?.

Original DHP clay was gone a long time ago. But must be owned by someone and dealt expensively. Like I said before, I've never seen DHP pots that were less than several hundreds.

I don't think I am going to get any better photos of the black pot, but I may try again later. If it does have iron oxide added, can you tell what the basic clay is? I believe I was told Zhu Ni (Zhuni)..

Zhuni is red clay thus the letter Zhu 朱. Just note there is never 'black' clay after heated. The closest thing to black-ish is called Wu ni, and that is what's called as Yuan Kuang Hei ni (original black clay) on the market. But even Wu ni shows dark brown, far from all-black so-called Heini from the market.

Intentional ways of producing all-black clay can be either,

contained with manganese oxide or cobalt oxide.

Or 'Wu Hui' method which is vacuumizing Zi ni then heats slowly, causing a chemical change that turns black.

Peace.

[t4texas]

Thanks, Charles. I am still puzzled by a few things. Well, probably hundreds or even thousands of things.

If the stamp is put on a flat piece of clay before shaping it by hand only, would not it also look curved if on the curved side of a pot?

I found the YSLLC DHP Pot topic and your comments since posting last. So from what Scott at YSLLC has posted about these pots on eBay and what you have explained, it sounds like calling them DHP clay now is more of a marketing technique similar to branding. That said, if it's not from old DHP, but rather a similar alternate clay site I am okay with that at this price point as long as it is a well-made pot that will brew some teas well.

From your description of clays and what they look like after firing, I may have one or more from CTPG that are Wu ni/Yuan Kuang Hei ni - they are a very dark brown. CTPG told me one of these (a larger older pot, age unknown) is made from a no longer available clay, and it makes the best tea of all my non-gong fu size pots so far. I also have a few that are a slightly lighter brown, more brown-purple - any idea whether they would be the same or a different clay?

I am not sure what the "black" pots are made of, but from what he said last week it sounds more like what you describe as the "Wu Hui" method for Zi ni to make it turn black. CTPG did say it was the firing that made the clay turn black. As I said upthread, the black shows a glimmer of purple-brown in the black - does that mean anything to you?

I'll have to discuss this more with CTPG again sometime. I may just take a bunch of my pots with me and ask him to tell me what he thinks each type is made from. We were not able to have this kind of discussion when I first met him, because I did not know what questions to ask, he did not know I would be interested in this level of detail, and we were having a little more difficulty with our languages.

So what is the least expensive cost for a completely hand-made (no molding) pot today...not an old pot or one by a famous potter, but one well-made that pours well and brews good tea of some type. And where can you find one?

Thanks again, Charles.

[t4texas]

Just a followup note to say that I brewed a very good Dan Cong today in the "black" pot pictured above and was very pleased. First time to brew anything in it. Much better result than my attempt last week with a pot made on an electric potter's wheel. Not gong fu, but rather 2 g in 180 ml pot for 5 minutes first infusion. I got four decent infusions out of it.

[chrl42]

If the stamp is put on a flat piece of clay before shaping it by hand only, would not it also look curved if on the curved side of a pot?.

That was what I was saying, reason of stamp on the wall is (curved therefore) a sign of hand-making.

the black shows a glimmer of purple-brown in the black - does that mean anything to you?

I guess, 'Wu Hui' made pots are not as black as artificial dyes contained pots.

So what is the least expensive cost for a completely hand-made (no molding) pot today...not an old pot or one by a famous potter, but one well-made that pours well and brews good tea of some type. And where can you find one??

I would say, no less than 200 bucks and to be able to make in completely hand-making already means he's skilled and experienced potter. The place to find those? I would purchase these pots from my acquintance or renowned stores in China, in USA? I would not know..

[t4texas]

Thanks yet again, Charles. I appreciate your insight into Yixing.

I was guessing somewhere around $200 - $500 for the bottom range of completely hand-made pots. Perhaps some of the Hu De and JingTeaShop pots are completely hand-made. I would very much like to have just one, but don't think I'll be doing that any time soon. I think I would want to be able to see and handle a number of such pots before buying one.

[t4texas]

Is there any rhyme or reason to why a pot is made with a flat multi-hole filter vs a ball filter? In general I have liked pots with flat filters better and found them to be more often hand-made with molds vs made on an electric potter's wheel, but don't think that's an absolute pattern.

Do you have a preference for one style filter or the other, and if so, why?

[betta]

As far as I know ,the golf honeycomb filter was used in japanese pottery starting from 80's. Logically it should give a better filtration effect compare to flat filter. I've compared it once between honeycomb, flat multiple holes and single hole xishi as I brewed high mountain oolong. Please note here that the high mountain oolong has quite large tea leaves.
The pouring is always smooth in honeycomb compare to flat multiple holes and last the single spout. After the leaves starting to expand, the leaves started to block any flat surface (in flat multple holes and single spout) and disturbing the flow out of the pot.

[tsusentei]

These are really great posts. Thanks for all of the info.

My two-cents, and questions, on Yixing/teapots:

I tend to prefer older pots which have no filter, just a straight shot from basin to cup. When I find a more broken tea that doesn't steep well, I will do it in a gaiwan or insert a stainless filter from the inside, to maintain flow. Any thoughts on steel filters in Yixing? Affect flavor for you?

For Japanese teas, I prefer the golfball filter. If a tea gets too stopped up in one of these I find that it generally isn't worth sitting down and drinking anyhow. These days you can of course find the myraid strainer designs; ie, metal ceramic, liner, etc. What do we all use? I would like to know who likes what, and why, so I can try on some new shoes at home. (This should really go in a new thread, but I have to get to work..)

Thanks again! Very informative Charles.

[TIM]

These are really great posts. Thanks for all of the info.

My two-cents, and questions, on Yixing/teapots:

I tend to prefer older pots which have no filter, just a straight shot from basin to cup. When I find a more broken tea that doesn't steep well, I will do it in a gaiwan or insert a stainless filter from the inside, to maintain flow. Any thoughts on steel filters in Yixing? Affect flavor for you?

For Japanese teas, I prefer the golfball filter. If a tea gets too stopped up in one of these I find that it generally isn't worth sitting down and drinking anyhow. These days you can of course find the myraid strainer designs; ie, metal ceramic, liner, etc. What do we all use? I would like to know who likes what, and why, so I can try on some new shoes at home. (This should really go in a new thread, but I have to get to work..)

Thanks again! Very informative Charles.

Hi tsusentei, here are my finding on teapot filters.
I found these 2 different devices in my older pots. I think the detachable filter is a brilliant idea. Hope they can remake it....

[wyardley]

Hi tsusentei, here are my finding on teapot filters.
I found these 2 different devices in my older pots. I think the detachable filter is a brilliant idea. Hope they can remake it....

Are those metal?

I have a couple of these ones; I imagine Hou De can get them though they don't have them listed explicitly on their site.


I also have seen either a metal screen going from top to bottom along the teapot wall, or a small square of metal screen with a staple holding into the teapot spout.

[betta]

I have a couple of these ones; I imagine Hou De can get them though they don't have them listed explicitly on their site.


I also have seen either a metal screen going from top to bottom along the teapot wall, or a small square of metal screen with a staple holding into the teapot spout.

I'm afraid I have to remind everyone that this filter might damage inner surface of your pot, especially old thin pots are very vulnerable. If you installed it in your pot, make sure that it neither scratch deeply nor drilled a hole through the pot's spout.

[tsusentei]

Hi tsusentei, here are my finding on teapot filters.
I found these 2 different devices in my older pots. I think the detachable filter is a brilliant idea. Hope they can remake it....

Are those metal?

I have a couple of these ones; I imagine Hou De can get them though they don't have them listed explicitly on their site.

Wow, those are very cool Tim. I have never seen anything like them. Wish I could see one installed, they look very delicate.

I actually use the items shown by WYARDLEY. These will not damage your pot, as long as you are careful in their placement. These are meant for pots with a single large hole on the inside of the pot. You can install one simply and safely with a plastic straw. Fold the plastic straw in half lengthwise and insert it through the spout. Pull the inserted end out of the top of the pot and insert the tines of the filter into the end of the straw. Pull the straw back out of the spout, dragging the filter into the interior of the spout from the top of the pot. If this is unclear I can try to draw a picture.

Funny, the minutia one must deal with just to drink a bit of tea (^^)