Vegetal? How about grassy!

[pb2q]

Exactly my sentiments, kymidwife, though I could never have expressed it so well.

Ditto, very well said, and very close to my own thoughts. But I would likely have missed mentioning that important savory aspect of 'vegetal'. For me, vegetal is a term that encompasses a range of flavors from spinach to seaweed. However, seaweed, like grassy is a more specific term for a specific flavor common in Japanese greens that I've tried.

Any of these flavors (and of course others), in the right proportion, in a good green, are desirable.

[Charlotte]

This is a funny thing for me because the first time I tried the Sencha Premier I swore I was drinking fresh grass clippings. YIKES! I was making it according to the tins directions 180 degrees for 3 min. I almost threw the tin out. THe only reason I kept it was because it was a beautiful green. Corny, I know! I ran across some info of just steeping it for 30 seconds, use less tea 1/2 t. per cup and viola - a much better tea. I actually enjoy it so much more. My tin is almost gone. It's still not my favorite, but it's better than the nasty grass clippings!

[Tea Noob]

This is a funny thing for me because the first time I tried the Sencha Premier I swore I was drinking fresh grass clippings. YIKES! I was making it according to the tins directions 180 degrees for 3 min. I almost threw the tin out. THe only reason I kept it was because it was a beautiful green. Corny, I know! I ran across some info of just steeping it for 30 seconds, use less tea 1/2 t. per cup and viola - a much better tea. I actually enjoy it so much more. My tin is almost gone. It's still not my favorite, but it's better than the nasty grass clippings!

Aren't you just watering down something you don't like? Most people on here say the guidelines for tea call for too little tea. Interesting that you went for less. It truely is I think I will use some of the peppermint or spearmint that I got to cover up the grassiness. Or just pass it on to my brother or mom to try.

So far I have only gotten one suggestion that isn't grassy, yet many aren't saying that grassy is the defining taste characteristic of a Japanese Green. Not sure if I brought it up in the beginning but dragonwell is equally as nasty for me. So I am not just hating on the Japanese greens, just the grassy ones. I think i prefer the more delicate tastes of white teas and the other Chinese Greens I have had.

[pb2q]

Aren't you just watering down something you don't like?

I find a touch of grassiness pleasant in some green teas. This almost never causes me to seek more grassiness.

When we change brewing parameters (leaf amt, water temp, steep time) one thing that happens is that some characteristics (aroma, flavor, mouthfeel, ...) of the tea might recede and others might become more prominent. These adjustments are based on the taster's palate and preferences and are subjective. The taster's perception of the strength of these characteristics depends not only on some absolute measure but on their relation to other characteristics.

A little astringency (or sourness, grassiness, mineral, ...) is nice and can highlight other characteristics of the tea. Too much and the tea becomes undrinkable.

I apologize if this seems a bit vague.

[Beidao]

Ok, I'll try to sum up all my thoughts while reading this discussion:

1. When trying to describe tastes that other people also describe, it's very functioning to use already existing words. Like vegetal or grassy. They will not mean exactly the same to all of us, but we will get what the other person mean most of the time. For me, vegetal means vegetables. Artichoke, asparagus, spinach, broccoli, etc. Not grass! I've even heard the term "leafy" being used and understood what it meant. I don't remember having tasted a tea that was exactly grassy, but that may just be me.

2. A good dragonwell should not taste like grass, it should tast like nuts and butter, or at least that's my experience.

3. If you want to try green tea that is not vegetal, try hojicha. It doesn't taste much like green tea at all really. Try to explore other teas for a while, then go back to green tea and be carefull with your brewing and with chosing good quality! You will notice that many green oolongs are very vegetal (but not grassy).

4. I don't think Charlotte is watering down something she doesn't like. 3 minutes for a sencha sounds very much to me, I would say 1 minute at the most. Never trust the sellers brewing directions!

[ErikaM]

I'm strictly a tea newbie, but it's the vegetal taste that I absolutely adore in the Japenese greens. To me, that translates to more of an asparagus- or seaweed-type note in the tea. I think of "grassy" as the bitter mess you get if you steep gyokuro too long or at too high a temperature. (I speak from experience. Green teas definitely take some practice.)

I don't think of dragon well as a very vegetal-tasting green, definitely not anywhere as "green" tasting as the Japanese greens. To me, it has more of a pleasant toasty, nutty flavor. It's one of my favorites.

You might try a flavored green as a way to ease yourself into greens.

[Tea Noob]

A little astringency (or sourness, grassiness, mineral, ...) is nice and can highlight other characteristics of the tea. Too much and the tea becomes undrinkable.

I apologize if this seems a bit vague.

I agree that subtle, small amounts, of certain tastes are to be desired. It is the smack-me-in-the-face greenness that covers up any other potential flavors. I am searching for a more balanced green or the proper method to accomplish this. Your description isn't nearly as vague as many others.

1. When trying to describe tastes that other people also describe, it's very functioning to use already existing words. Like vegetal or grassy. They will not mean exactly the same to all of us, but we will get what the other person mean most of the time. For me, vegetal means vegetables. Artichoke, asparagus, spinach, broccoli, etc. Not grass! I've even heard the term "leafy" being used and understood what it meant. I don't remember having tasted a tea that was exactly grassy, but that may just be me.

2. A good dragonwell should not taste like grass, it should tast like nuts and butter, or at least that's my experience.

3. If you want to try green tea that is not vegetal, try hojicha. It doesn't taste much like green tea at all really. Try to explore other teas for a while, then go back to green tea and be carefull with your brewing and with chosing good quality! You will notice that many green oolongs are very vegetal (but not grassy).

4. I don't think Charlotte is watering down something she doesn't like. 3 minutes for a sencha sounds very much to me, I would say 1 minute at the most. Never trust the sellers brewing directions!

I agree that using similar descriptive words are a way to understand what others mean. However, nearly all descriptive words specifically describe something. Vegetal is vague by definition and frankly, words that are vague are not the most effective descriptive words. If dragonwell isn't suposed to taste grassy please direct me to a good dragonwell to try. I have asked several times for brewing guidelines as well as good suppliers. I have only tried 1 or 2 green oolongs and if that is the taste we refer to when using the vegetal word then I concur that they will be vegetal, but not grassy.

PostPosted: Jan 9th 09 1:19 pm Post subject:
I'm strictly a tea newbie, but it's the vegetal taste that I absolutely adore in the Japenese greens. To me, that translates to more of an asparagus- or seaweed-type note in the tea. I think of "grassy" as the bitter mess you get if you steep gyokuro too long or at too high a temperature. (I speak from experience. Embarassed Green teas definitely take some practice.)

I don't think of dragon well as a very vegetal-tasting green, definitely not anywhere as "green" tasting as the Japanese greens. To me, it has more of a pleasant toasty, nutty flavor. It's one of my favorites.

You might try a flavored green as a way to ease yourself into greens.

I see this asparagus word coming up a lot. Are we talking grilled asparagus or steamed or raw? Everyone I know that has tried the dragonwell has hated it and we all agree it is too grassy. I am fairly certain that is a good enough descriptive word to get our point across. Are people saying that is not how Adagio's is suposed to taste? I am going to avoid buying flavored teas. I can make my own with my 'grassy greens' and some peppermint

Say I decide to play with my brewing techniques. What is the best place to start? Lower temp? I currently brew less than the recommended time anyway.

[Tea Noob]

Never trust the sellers brewing directions!

I am always perplexed when I read this. Are we that cynical to really think this way? We are capitalists. The way to capital is to provide a service. The better the service the more the capital. Silly me for thinking tea sellers would want more money and would have enough pride in their product to want the consumer to enjoy it.


I would like to provide a warning for this and my previous post. If I come off a little intense... I apologize. Enjoying some Assam from TeaSource. Nice and powerful!

[Pentox]

Never trust the sellers brewing directions!

I've actually found this to be the opposite. If a vendor's brewing instructions seem a little odd, sometimes they're that way for a reason. A good vendor knows the product and knows if it's a bit different and needs a different temp or time. I've looked at some that have lower weights to use, try it at standard find it too strong, and so i end up moving to their suggested weight. Same with temp.

I would say that it's better to try vendor instructions, but don't hold fast to them.

Of course use context and reason though. If someone is suggesting 5Kilos of tea per ounce, obviously that's just to sell more tea. Or if they have one instruction for all of their teas. But a good vendor will have tea specific instructions and those should be paid a little heed.

[Tea Noob]

an excerpt from Wikipedia's definition of oolong:

"Oolong has a taste more akin to green tea than to black tea: it lacks the rosy, sweet aroma of black tea but it likewise does not have the stridently grassy vegetal notes that typify green tea."

From Wiki Sencha page:
"The initial steaming step imparts a difference in the flavor between Chinese and Japanese green tea, with Japanese green tea having a more vegetal, almost grassy flavor (some taste seaweed-like flavors). Infusions from sencha and other green teas that are steamed (like most common Japanese green teas) are also greener in color and slightly more bitter than Chinese-style green teas."

Edit: Just felt like giving a trial run with the advise from the pros (you folks). I did about 2-3 tsps in 4-6 oz of water with sencha overture from Adagio. Heated the water to 160-170, steeped for 30 seconds. It was less grassy, more sweet with a touch of butteriness. I will continue playing mad scientist as long as the great words of wisdom keep coming in.

[ErikaM]

I see this asparagus word coming up a lot. Are we talking grilled asparagus or steamed or raw? Everyone I know that has tried the dragonwell has hated it and we all agree it is too grassy.

Hhmmnn... I've never tried raw asparagus, so I guess I'll say steamed.

I have Adagio's dragon well and really enjoy it, although I haven't tried other dragon wells to compare it against. To me, it comes across as a toasted nut flavor relative to other greens. But the key word there is relative. I think a lot depends on what type of tea you consider the baseline or norm against which you compare other teas. Dragon well would indeed seem very "green" compared to a black tea or darker oolong. Personally, I prefer whites, greens, and lighter oolongs (I'm not a fan of black tea), so for me something like dragon well or pi lo chun is sort of the mid-point. But as with anything else involving personal taste, your mileage may vary.

[Beidao]

What I mean is: if the vendor's description doesn't work, try something else! I don't mean that Adagio doesn't know how their teas should be brewed... The latest tea I bought had a suggestion of 5 minutes brewing. It didn't turn out well before I minimized the brewing to 30 seconds. I later found out they said 5 minutes on all their teas. Sometimes vendor's descripition is perfect, but not always. And taste differs. The vendor can't know how I like my tea to be brewed.

I mean steamed apsarargus. What I mean is mostly the aroma.

Dragonwell was a tea I had big problems with. It turned out bitter and not nice at all. At last i found that 70 degress celcius and exactly 1 minute brewing worked for me. Before that, I hated Dragonwell. Now I liked it. But there's many bad dragonwell out there. I've never bought anything from Adagio, but some dragonwell I've tried were just bad quality and didn't turn out well no matter how I brewed them.

For me, vegetal is a functioning word because of it's vagueness. Sometimes I mean all vegetable tastes, not specificly one vegetable. Sometimes the taste is not asparagus, not artichoke... but something rather vague, although clearly like cooked vegetables. Imagine cooking some broccoli, artichoke, asparagus in the same water and then drinking the water...

[chamekke]

What I mean is: if the vendor's description doesn't work, try something else! I don't mean that Adagio doesn't know how their teas should be brewed... The latest tea I bought had a suggestion of 5 minutes brewing. It didn't turn out well before I minimized the brewing to 30 seconds. I later found out they said 5 minutes on all their teas. Sometimes vendor's descripition is perfect, but not always. And taste differs. The vendor can't know how I like my tea to be brewed.

Adagio is assuming, I think, that people are using the "large teapot, modest amount of leaf, lots of water" method rather than the gongfu or small pot/lots of leaf approach. Hence the looooong steep times. (If a lot of their customers are coming straight from teabag territory to loose-leaf country, that kinda makes sense.)

AFAIK, the tins on all their black/dark oolong teas also specify a uniform 212F for temperature and 180F for all the white/"light" oolong/green teas.

Decent brewing guidelines are missing altogether from Adagio's individual tea listings, which I do find odd. When as a n00b I first began exploring new teas via Adagio, I ransacked the reviews section looking for suggestions on temperature, time, and amount of leaf. It was due to the thoughtfulness of customers who posted their own suggestion in product reviews - and of course the kindness of folks here! - that I was able to obtain satisfactory brewing results.

[Charlotte]

Edit: Just felt like giving a trial run with the advise from the pros (you folks). I did about 2-3 tsps in 4-6 oz of water with sencha overture from Adagio. Heated the water to 160-170, steeped for 30 seconds. It was less grassy, more sweet with a touch of butteriness. I will continue playing mad scientist as long as the great words of wisdom keep coming in.

Good for you! If it doesn't work out, at least you gave it your best effort.

[Tea Noob]

Edit: Just felt like giving a trial run with the advise from the pros (you folks). I did about 2-3 tsps in 4-6 oz of water with sencha overture from Adagio. Heated the water to 160-170, steeped for 30 seconds. It was less grassy, more sweet with a touch of butteriness. I will continue playing mad scientist as long as the great words of wisdom keep coming in.

Good for you! If it doesn't work out, at least you gave it your best effort.

While I was doing this last night I wound up consuming quite a bit of tea, which was on top of the black tea that I drank earlier in the day after work. I was very speedy and it took me forever to get to bed. I think in the end, Oolongs are where I will settle in but I will always have a place for all varieties. I could never have learned so much in such a short time without everyone here, I am indebted to you all. I hope to continue learning. It still blows my mind there is tea outside of a bag!

Also, where does everyone get the pics of tea for their avatar? They all seem to be the same format but different teas.