Gaiwan Adventures continued

[Victoria]

I prefer to use small cooking vessels like ramekins that allow the items I am warming and little more other than the water.

Humm that's an interesting idea. Do you use wooden tongs on them afterwards? Aren't they pretty hot to handle?

[Intuit]

I was surprised at how quickly the Bamboo tasting cups cooled down (and Bamboo Gaiwan).

Is this rapid cooling a known factor in extra thin porcelain?

It is the whole point. That is why it tasted different.

OK, so we need an explanation here. WHY, if you use a thin-walled Gaiwan for extraction, do you need a thin-walled teacup as well?

It makes sense for the Gaiwan - you are controlling extraction conditions.

Why do you want the tea to cool quickly in the cup for a DanCong? Something delicate in flavor is being protected from oxidation, perhaps? Or are we trying to reduce aroma volatiles loss in favor of concentrating flavor on the tongue?

Edit: Do you also need to rewarm the cups between the first and second extractions, but not later extractions?

Also, should the water be *boiling* as opposed to 'just boiled'.

Even in making black teas, we don't add rapidly boiling water - its a tad too hot and will extract undesirable flavor elements within the normal peak extraction window.

[wyardley]

I already have 2 or 3 Cha Chuan, 1 with a raised pedestal in the centre, but find them quite expensive on hot water (volume rather than cost

If the tea boat is appropriately sized to the pot it shouldn't be too bad... you don't have to fill it all the way up.

Try filling your cups with boiling water before you fill the pot, then dump the cups over the top of the pot (2 at a time) after you fill it.

[ABx]

OK, so we need an explanation here. WHY, if you use a thin-walled Gaiwan for extraction, do you need a thin-walled teacup as well?

It's not necessarily about Dancong, but it's the point of those cups.

Teas will taste and smell different as they cool, and some teas will change more significantly than others as - not necessarily any one type of tea (eg Dancong, yancha, etc.) but individual teas. So for those teas you might want something that will cool faster. Since cups are usually only 30-60ml or so, you might not be able to experience the whole range with something that holds heat better. You generally finish off a cup in about 2 to 4 sips.

The faircup/pitcher, on the other hand...

This is why I say that there are times that it's best to mix and match teaware for some teas.

[ABx]

I already have 2 or 3 Cha Chuan, 1 with a raised pedestal in the centre, but find them quite expensive on hot water (volume rather than cost)

Like I say, too, if you're going to preheat then you will want to do so multiple times because when you're starting from cold, the water and teaware are going to find equilibrium - the heat is going to transfer to the vessel (cooling down) until they reach the same temp, which will be a fair amount cooler than the near-boiling water you started off with. So you want to do this multiple times. If you're using a tea boat then you don't have to use as much water at a time.

If course if you're dedicating time to sit down to a session with small cups then you don't need to do more than the initial preheating as the teaware shouldn't have much chance to cool off as you drink small amounts at a time. I generally find this hard to do, so I do find some kind of tea boat to help reduce the amount of water used for preheating overall; even if it's just a piece of tupperware

Also don't forget how much volume the pot and/or cups take - sometimes the amount of actual water can be relatively little

[gingkoseto]

Is the peony gaiwan from treasuregreen as well?

Yes, this was the one I ordered (Cherry Blossom)

http://www.treasuregreen.com/product/200512

They replied to say that it had sold out but had a Peony One they could sell me, and would be updating their site.

The order was submitted by about Jan 8 and arrived this side of the Atlantic on Jan 14 so that was good.

But I see they are still "selling" the Cherry Blossom one ???? and probably not yet the 'Peony'

I like the peony one much more than the cherry one! Or it's entirely photo effect. I don't know if it's because of resolution of their photo or what, in their photo of the cherry gaiwan, the painting looks broken and sketchy. Maybe because their photo is too big?

[Herb_Master]

OK, so we need an explanation here. WHY, if you use a thin-walled Gaiwan for extraction, do you need a thin-walled teacup as well?

It makes sense for the Gaiwan - you are controlling extraction conditions.

It is exactly Intuit's point that I was skirting around when I said I had not expected / was surprised to find. I knew the gaiwan bit [Abx has been coaching me ]

Why do you want the tea to cool quickly in the cup for a DanCong? Something delicate in flavor is being protected from oxidation, perhaps? Or are we trying to reduce aroma volatiles loss in favor of concentrating flavor on the tongue?

I am not sure that you do, it may be an aesthetic thing to have a complementary set - it was with me! However when I sampled the first cupful from the first infusion you certainly get something different (from later cupfulss) as the cup hovers near your nostrils before taking that initial sip.

The mention of hovering was not totally intentional - that first cupful the cup was VERY hot too touch - and I hovered whilst working out
a) Can I keep holding this or should I put it down ?
b) will it be too hot for my lips/tongue ?
BUT even as I was considering and my nose was getting first shares on the contents the cup was cooling down and became easily bearable to hold.Might this be an essential delight of the cups matching the gaiwan, or just my flight of fancy ?
I still think aesthetics and being part of a set is equally likely!

Edit: Do you also need to rewarm the cups between the first and second extractions, but not later extractions?

I think I mentioned that I gulped the first few infusions down, so did not rewarm between - maybe I should have!
But I left 30 minutes between 4th and 5th infusions and between 7th and 8th infusions. Whenever I came back after such a delay, I warmed the loaded gaiwan in my version of a TeaBoat (Ramekin) from standard kettle, while the water to be used was warming in my Kamjove, and rinsed the cup then left standing with water in again with water from my standard kettle which comes to a boil quicker than my Kamjove. The subsequent infusions the cup never got as hot, partly because of your next point and partly because the gaiwan already being loaded with damp leaves was not as warm as the initially empty gaiwan warmed inside with water first then dry leaves, instant rinse and proper infusion.

Consequently my cup never again became as hot as 1st Infusion 1st Cup.

Also, should the water be *boiling* as opposed to 'just boiled'.

According to Imen it Should be
"Dragon Eyes" boiling for the first 2 Infusions only,
"Fish Eyes" a few seconds off the boil for the next 3 or so infusions until the leaves are fully awake
"Shrimp Eyes" for all the later infusions

She also suggests that most DanCongs should take the boiling water full on to the leaves [butb not all] if this draws out something that you are not keen on then when repeating you should try pouring it slowly from a greater height or aiming it at a point on the Gaiwan that is clear of leaves.

I gave the gaiwan a greater loading of leaves than she suggested but it still worked very well for me.

[tenuki]

My comments were directed at the brewing vessel obviously (gaiwan), not the cup you drink it in.

[Herb_Master]

I already have 2 or 3 Cha Chuan, 1 with a raised pedestal in the centre, but find them quite expensive on hot water (volume rather than cost

If the tea boat is appropriately sized to the pot it shouldn't be too bad... you don't have to fill it all the way up.

Try filling your cups with boiling water before you fill the pot, then dump the cups over the top of the pot (2 at a time) after you fill it.

Yes I sometimes use the smaller teaboat with no pedestal for warming my Yixing before initial use, then when subsequent brews are warmed in a Ramekin I empty the cooled water from those into the teaboat, as infusions progress, to use it as a water bucket. The rinse water having gone through the cups and cup warming water on later infusions all ends up in the tea boat. The larger one pedestal should I believe have the Yixing pot on the pedestal and the cup(s) in the moat BUT I cannot handle tongs on small 20ml bowls at all dextrously and even 30ml bowls are an incredibly tight fit coming out of the gap between moat and pedestal.
However with the pot on the pedestal I do empty the cup warming water over the pot, and a little bit from the kettle also as I start my timing.

Notwithstanding all that, my current reflections are all about Porcelain Gaiwan(s) and cups - the cups are far too huge to fit in the exterior moat, and though I do pour warming water over a Pot am loathe to do it on a Gaiwan - more than I want would perhaps end up inside the Gaiwan. Though having watched some masters at work as long as it is at the very very start of the infusion this may not be a problem as the excess slides over the Gaiwan lid and away. That presumably would teach me to use an absolutely full Gaiwan - as this chap does for the rinse when overflow is not an issue.

Gong Fu Cha - Phoenix tea in Chao Zhou, Guangdong Province
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LqUFY6SpJZU

By the way does anyone know what he is saying?

[Herb_Master]

I prefer to use small cooking vessels like ramekins that allow the items I am warming and little more other than the water.

Humm that's an interesting idea. Do you use wooden tongs on them afterwards? Aren't they pretty hot to handle?

Tongs HaHa I am not very good with Tongs

Up until yesterday I had been mainly doing it with Yixing Teapots which were on a non first Infusion. And the handle never seemed to get too hot.
The cups I would just fill with water from my normal kettle and quickly discard the water just before use. The cups were usually (until yesterday) Glazed Pottery a la yixing style. The other ceramic cups I own (12 piece fencai set from Teacuppa# ) were a tiny bit hot when I emptied them but had cooled by the time some real liquor was inside.

# ! of them developed a tiny chip when I manoeuvred it next to a pot for a photo

[Herb_Master]

Like I say, too, if you're going to preheat then you will want to do so multiple times because when you're starting from cold, the water and teaware are going to find equilibrium - the heat is going to transfer to the vessel (cooling down) until they reach the same temp, which will be a fair amount cooler than the near-boiling water you started off with. So you want to do this multiple times. If you're using a tea boat then you don't have to use as much water at a time.

If course if you're dedicating time to sit down to a session with small cups then you don't need to do more than the initial preheating as the teaware shouldn't have much chance to cool off as you drink small amounts at a time. I generally find this hard to do, so I do find some kind of tea boat to help reduce the amount of water used for preheating overall; even if it's just a piece of tupperware

Also don't forget how much volume the pot and/or cups take - sometimes the amount of actual water can be relatively little

On this occasion the Gaiwan only managed 2 cups, but I do love the change in the range of flavours and mouth experiences as it cools down from Boiling -> All But Boiling -> Very Close to Boiling -> Close to Boiling -> Nearly Boiling -> Very Hot -> Hot

[Intuit]

Thank-you very much for the careful replies to my query on thermal effects on taste/odor.

There maybe more to matching gaiwan and cup material/wall thickness than simple aesthetics.

Ahh So! There are actually several important variables to play with, even for a simple small scale extraction device like a gaiwan and cup set!

[Bubba_tea]

Gong Fu Cha - Phoenix tea in Chao Zhou, Guangdong Province
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LqUFY6SpJZU

By the way does anyone know what he is saying?

Wow - Mr. Fasthands! Can't help with what he's saying... it's hard for me to understand Cantonese (sorry, or is that Chaozhounese) speakers speaking Putonghua...

ps - Hey Mr. Yardley (or anyone) - is that they induction kamjove he's using that they sell on the birdpick site?

[wyardley]

Though having watched some masters at work as long as it is at the very very start of the infusion this may not be a problem as the excess slides over the Gaiwan lid and away. That presumably would teach me to use an absolutely full Gaiwan - as this chap does for the rinse when overflow is not an issue.

If you don't have the saucer under it, you can easily just fill the gaiwan a bit over, then once you put the lid on, tip the gaiwan slightly to push off the excess water. Folks who have a lot of practice can do this (including skimming bubbles on the first infusion or two) in one fluid motion.

If you have as much leaf as that guy, sometimes it's hard to skim the top the normal way, so I picked up another trick from Michael at Tea Gallery - you can hold the lid almost vertically and quickly dip up and down while moving across the top of the gaiwan to skim the stuff off instead. Of course, doing this quickly and gracefully (and then wiping off the lid) requires some finesse.

Some folks do the opposite -- slightly underfill, and then pour a tiny bit of water over the lid, just enough to get a sense of the color of the tea without lifting the lid (with practice).

[Herb_Master]

The peony Gaiwan is a delight, 1 small problem with the lid aside, and not too hot too handle.

That is what I wrote

Try filling your cups with boiling water before you fill the pot, then dump the cups over the top of the pot (2 at a time) after you fill it.

That's what Will wrote at 6:15pm [? my time?]

If you don't have the saucer under it, you can easily just fill the gaiwan a bit over, then once you put the lid on, tip the gaiwan slightly to push off the excess water.

That's what he wrote 12 hours later.

In between the 2 I had started a new brew of Hou De's Jing Huang using my Large Bamboo Gaiwan.
AND
emptied the Bamboo Faircup and cup warming water over the gaiwan for the first infusion.

Oh silly me!

The time ticked, I placed my fingers under the saucer and my thumb on top of the lid and OUCH

Hot water swimming in the saucer had raised the temperature of the saucer unbearably - by the time I had adjusted and got a towel and started pouring my 20 second infusion was 45 and the brew was as good as ruined, still drinkable but more astringency, caffeine, body and other elements than I would have wanted to enjoy it!

Lesson learned!