Tea (and) Philosophy

For general/other topics related to tea.


Feb 23rd, '09, 20:16
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Re: *squint*

by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 20:16

tenuki wrote: I was actually talking about all science in general, and no, the scientific view, like other monotheistic religions, does not take kindly at all to others disputing it's root god/validity. Duh.
Depends on the scientific or monotheistic view really. There are as many examples of each as there are people practicing them. Some couldn't really care if you want to dispute their god/validity, others will strongly oppose any dispute and others again are happy to discuss pretty much any dispute until the wee small hours.
tenuki wrote:So what, just because someone claims to be correct and factual doesn't mean they are or that correct and factual is even important in the larger scheme of things. I don't care if they would be upset, it's immaterial to my point of view.
Sometimes it can't be avoided but I do find it a helpful skill to be able to put forth my own pov without causing upset, from marriage to raising a kid to arguing down the pub to farting around on TeaChat it's a skill I'd like to hone until I'm pushing up the daises.
tenuki wrote:Which is first, the social bonding or the serotonin release? This is more important a discussion than the facts you mention. I get endorphins by running, not the other way around... and I've had at least as many experiences over tea where I grew to dislike someone as the other way around. L-Theanine is _precursor_, ie it is the soup from which other things emerge, what is it that emerges and more importantly why does that particular thing emerge? Meditation can reliably produce different measurable mental states without any outside chemical influence, right? Do you see what I'm getting at?
I'm not sure I do see what you are getting at. Practicing meditation changes our brain chemistry as does tea? Should I rank the study of playing with myself as more important than the study of the effect a glass of whisky has on me because one involves the consumption of chemicals? L-Theanine itself emerges from the soup in the tea plant and I don't see a problem with asking why it emerges, what it is and furthermore what it causes to emerge in our skulls which causes the emergence of phenomena that we experience. They are all fruitful lines of questioning as long as we remember on occasion to stop emphasizing the importance of certain what's and why's over others and experience a nice cup of tea.

Feb 23rd, '09, 20:19
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by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 20:19

silverneedles wrote:can anyone tie the I-Ching with tea, or is there another facet of chinese (or japanese) philosophy that should/can be used?
Dump the yarrow sticks and start reading tea leaves.

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Feb 23rd, '09, 20:41
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by silverneedles » Feb 23rd, '09, 20:41

what sticks?
i dont read tea leaves, but i do eat them... does that count?

Feb 23rd, '09, 20:50
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by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 20:50

Sorry just eating them doesn't count as a pass.

The common method for consulting the I-Ching is to do so by reading broken and unbroken yarrow sticks, I think it's origins lay in consulting the cracks that appeared in turtle shells when they were burnt over a fire. These days a lot of people just flip coins to build up a hexagram instead of messing around with yarrow sticks but then again people also use instant tea mix instead of making a decent cup of tea.

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Feb 23rd, '09, 20:54
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Re: *squint*

by tenuki » Feb 23rd, '09, 20:54

Proinsias wrote:
tenuki wrote:So what, just because someone claims to be correct and factual doesn't mean they are or that correct and factual is even important in the larger scheme of things. I don't care if they would be upset, it's immaterial to my point of view.
Sometimes it can't be avoided but I do find it a helpful skill to be able to put forth my own pov without causing upset, from marriage to raising a kid to arguing down the pub to farting around on TeaChat it's a skill I'd like to hone until I'm pushing up the daises.
You missed the context entirely. His argument against my point of view was that some scientists in japan would be upset. that really isn't a valid argument. It would be like saying Rushdie makes some people mad so his books are wrong or that since people bomb abortion clinics that abortion must be wrong. This is simply not a valid argument, I think I used the word immaterial, which is appropriate I think. I did not say I don't care what makes people in general upset, just his hypothetical Japanese scientists having hypothetical emotions.

Is it so hard to understand? Your pejoratively implying I trample over other people's feelings to get my point of view understood belies your own words, what did I do to you to deserve that attack? Ouch, I feel upset by your inference... ;P
Proinsias wrote:
tenuki wrote:Which is first, the social bonding or the serotonin release? This is more important a discussion than the facts you mention. I get endorphins by running, not the other way around... and I've had at least as many experiences over tea where I grew to dislike someone as the other way around. L-Theanine is _precursor_, ie it is the soup from which other things emerge, what is it that emerges and more importantly why does that particular thing emerge? Meditation can reliably produce different measurable mental states without any outside chemical influence, right? Do you see what I'm getting at?
I'm not sure I do see what you are getting at. Practicing meditation changes our brain chemistry as does tea? Should I rank the study of playing with myself as more important than the study of the effect a glass of whisky has on me because one involves the consumption of chemicals? L-Theanine itself emerges from the soup in the tea plant and I don't see a problem with asking why it emerges, what it is and furthermore what it causes to emerge in our skulls which causes the emergence of phenomena that we experience. They are all fruitful lines of questioning as long as we remember on occasion to stop emphasizing the importance of certain what's and why's over others and experience a nice cup of tea.
from what you say here our points of view seem very similar to me.

Since you didn't understand what I was getting at here are more words to confuse things. :)

I was questioning the validity of the assumption that L-Theanine is the 'cause' of the positive mental state and human bonding in a mechanistic sense, ie unhappy? no friends? drink tea and it will 'make' you well adjusted and popular. I would posit that the act of sitting down with friends and chatting over water would have a very similar effect, it is the act of friendliness that creates friends, not some chemical in your brain. Does tea perhaps enhance this? Probably, but so does pizza or home made ice cream. L-Theanine exists in our brain without tea, and before I ever drank tea I had many positive social experience. Call me crazy, I'm going to be friendly to make friends, not drink tea and hope the chemicals in my brain modify my machine self in such a way that I bond with others. I also don't drink tea for weight loss btw, I exercise more and eat less for that.

Feb 23rd, '09, 21:01
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Well, yeah!

by Intuit » Feb 23rd, '09, 21:01

A question critical to this 'conversation' is raised:

"Practicing meditation changes our brain chemistry as does tea? "

The answer is a resounding YES, and it's being actively investigated by several major research centers around the world.

In the US, one lead investigator/center director posited that meditation 're-regulated' receptor activity across many crucial centers of activity associated with emotion, reasoning, impulsivity and social behaviors. He tested this hypothesis using positron emission tomography and MRI-scanning using receptor specific dyes. He tested novices and masters at a Lamasery, in a cooperative research project, too.

He was able to correlate EEGs, brain-wave patterns and center chemical activity, comparing controls to various groups of patients with stress- and anxiety disorders, subdivided into those taking medication and those using alternative treatment approaches including meditation and spiritual activities (prayer, ritual) - circa 2000.

Previously, he had spent a decade amassing thousands of scans and patient records to build a library of 'normal' and 'abnormal' patterns.

Even novice priests who had practiced serious meditation for just a few years had significantly altered patterns observed on EEG PET and MRI, when compared to non-practitioners and to patients suffering from chronic and acute stress effects.

Another really good question was raised regarding the chicken and egg situation of hormone stimulation and maternal bonding (early social bonding/parental model socialization).

Mothers release oxytocin during breastfeeding. It reinforces bonding between parent and offspring, but more importantly, it promotes neural development and maturation of brain cells. So its first hormone, then social interaction.

Theanine is especially important with respect to its promotion of GABA synthesis and release in brains prone to irregular stress tolerance response. In emotionally stressed infants and abused children, the stress response is changed from that of normal activity - fewer stress hormone receptors are made. It's thought that this damage to receptor gene expression results in increased sensitivity to ACTH and epinephrine. Researchers also believe that this epigenetic modulation can occur later in life as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7901337.stm?

Other published research has shown that lower levels of GABA synthesis and release also play a role in abnormal stress response and stress receptor gene regulation.

Brain wave 'chemistry' can be affected by music, too. Certain types of music are almost as potent at inducing calm but relaxing brain state as is elicited by meditation and prayer.

Chant, tribal rhythms, and hymns (sung and heard), all have been shown to moduate brain waves, reduce stress and induce oxytocin and dopamine release deep in the animal emotion centers of the brain.

Feb 23rd, '09, 22:11
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Re: *squint*

by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:11

tenuki wrote: You missed the context entirely. His argument against my point of view was that some scientists in japan would be upset. that really isn't a valid argument. It would be like saying Rushdie makes some people mad so his books are wrong or that since people bomb abortion clinics that abortion must be wrong. This is simply not a valid argument, I think I used the word immaterial, which is appropriate I think. I did not say I don't care what makes people in general upset, just his hypothetical Japanese scientists having hypothetical emotions.

Is it so hard to understand? Your pejoratively implying I trample over other people's feelings to get my point of view understood belies your own words, what did I do to you to deserve that attack? Ouch, I feel upset by your inference... ;P
Apologies, I did not intend to frame it as an attack. As I say putting across my own pov without causing upset is a work in progress.

It wasn't really the hypothetical scientists with hypothetical feelings I was responding to. More the idea that Intuit was implying men were machines and was in possession of a science based delusion. I would agree that Intuit seems to have hir science hat on in this thread but I see a leap from that to having a science based delusion. I may be making my own unwarranted leap but I read you post as dismissing Intuit's post due to the poster being delusional.


tenuki wrote:from what you say here our points of view seem very similar to me.

Since you didn't understand what I was getting at here are more words to confuse things. :)

I was questioning the validity of the assumption that L-Theanine is the 'cause' of the positive mental state and human bonding in a mechanistic sense, ie unhappy? no friends? drink tea and it will 'make' you well adjusted and popular. I would posit that the act of sitting down with friends and chatting over water would have a very similar effect, it is the act of friendliness that creates friends, not some chemical in your brain. Does tea perhaps enhance this? Probably, but so does pizza or home made ice cream. L-Theanine exists in our brain without tea, and before I ever drank tea I had many positive social experience. Call me crazy, I'm going to be friendly to make friends, not drink tea and hope the chemicals in my brain modify my machine self in such a way that I bond with others. I also don't drink tea for weight loss btw, I exercise more and eat less for that.
Cheers, I think things are sufficiently confused for some sort of agreement. Call me crazy but I'm going to drink tea and be friendly and not bother too much about which one does what to me - did being friendly or drinking tea land me with friends on TeaChat? And I think my tea habit has ended up with me being healthier in general as I've extended some of the same anal attitude I approach tea with to other things which I consume or plaster on my body. I've also extended the pleasure I derive from preparing tea into growing and preparing my own food - even to a small extent cleaning up the mess. My first revelation was equating making tea with doing kung fu but tea has since become the dominant model for comparison.

Feb 23rd, '09, 22:22
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by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:22

Oh, and Intuit - any chance of calming down with the science? The op wanted to discuss tea in relation to philosophy and whilst I feel there is some scope for some scientific insights on the topic you're going to completely ruin my argument that you are not suffering from a scientific delusion if you keep trying to tell us that we will have a much more fruitful discussion around tea and philosophy if we would all just start paying attention to the science behind it.

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Feb 23rd, '09, 22:24
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by tenuki » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:24

Interesting stuff Intuit.

There is this very funny ancedote about studying brain waves that I think I read in the book 'High Performance Mind' by Anna Wise. (I can't find the book right now so I can't be 100% sure that is the right reference for the story).

These scientists had a machine that measured brain waves and had started to identify the different patterns of waves that coorrilated to 'enlightened states'. They had the opportunity to visit some monks and show them the machine. The monks were open to the idea, but in order to test the machine they offered their master. Only after the master validated the findings of the machine did they accept it as something of interest.

I think science has it backwards most of the time if you are looking for 'truth'. The monks knew from personal experience that their master was enlightened, so they used him to validate the machine. Nothing changed in the monastery that day, except that purhaps now the researchers could consider their findings validated. The monks knew their master was enlightened before science ever showed up. Measuring something isn't the same as knowing it. The map is not the territory, but unfortunately science is mostly about mapping and a lot of people get confused by that.

Anyway, i'm blaming my long posts on this unidentified pu I'm drinking.
Do something different, something different will happen. ( Gong Fu Garden )

Feb 23rd, '09, 22:29
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by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:29

I'm very, very slowly working my way through Zen Brain Reflections which is by a neuroscientist who has been a practicing Zen Buddhist for a long time, bloody interesting stuff.

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Feb 23rd, '09, 22:30
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Re: *squint*

by tenuki » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:30

Proinsias wrote: I read you post as dismissing Intuit's post due to the poster being delusional.
Oh good, you did understand my original post, and did a much better job of summarizing my point than I did. :D
Last edited by tenuki on Feb 24th, '09, 00:46, edited 1 time in total.

Feb 23rd, '09, 22:33
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by Proinsias » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:33

Isn't it nice when everything works out in the end!

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Feb 23rd, '09, 22:36
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by tenuki » Feb 23rd, '09, 22:36

Proinsias wrote:I'm very, very slowly working my way through Zen Brain Reflections which is by a neuroscientist who has been a practicing Zen Buddhist for a long time, bloody interesting stuff.
There is a whole raft of books on this area that are worth reading, I'll have to add that to my list, thanks. I find the books by Matthieu Ricard (Quantum and the Lotus, etc) to be some of my favorites in this realm. No explicit reference to tea that I remember though. :)
Do something different, something different will happen. ( Gong Fu Garden )

Feb 23rd, '09, 23:06
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Re: *squint*

by AnthonyA » Feb 23rd, '09, 23:06

Intuit wrote: I certainly didn't imply that you were 'scientifically retarded', Anthony.
No, no. I was actually conceding that I don't have much grounding in science. I was not accusing you of trying to talk down to me.

Someone suggested that you lay of the science, but I will ask that you keep on giving information that you deem relevant.

This thread took a turn from my original intention which was to examine tea in relation to the Existential concept of Being. It has now shifted way off track, but I think it may be for the better.

My latest research has been in Philosophy of Mind. This field deals closely with cognitive science, so your posts have been very insightful, Intuit. I will say that though I am thankful for all the great information you have posted, it has thrown me off balance. I will need to carefully read over these posts and decide where to go from here.

My initial thoughts are that there is now a mind-body interaction problem to consider. By the tone of your replies, it seems as though you may be a physicalist - the theory that "I" am my body, no immaterial mind (soul) - in which case there would be less of a interaction problem. I am admittedly a dualist - "I" am a physical body, but my mind (soul) is immaterial - and so I will have to carefully consider my reply.

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Feb 24th, '09, 00:42
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Re: *squint*

by Space Samurai » Feb 24th, '09, 00:42

AnthonyA wrote:... it seems as though you may be a physicalist - the theory that "I" am my body, no immaterial mind (soul).
ooh, so there's a name for that.

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