I don't want to sound crass but how can you possibly discredit something before trying it?LaybackPandas wrote:Although i still havn't own a Yixing pot yet and you seem to be very knowledgeable, it's alittle hard to believe that finer clay pot make better tea, have you taste the 2 between cheap vs expensive yixing pot using gung fu style and the same type of tea before?hop_goblin wrote:Simply stated, a finer pot makes a total difference.
First of all, better clay makes better tea. Unfortnately, many of the mines which contain good clay are now depleted or will be depleted soon. As a consequence, any pot which is made of good quality clay will cost you more than 20USD.
Better clays are more porous and tender. Although the way it was kilned also to some degree will affect this. As a result, the seasoning of a pot is greatly enhanced. Secondly, better clays do have mineral contents which are different that cheaper stuffs and therefore differenct qualities produce different chemical reactions, although I am not as astute on how this process actually works.
Better pots are generally fired at a much higher temp resulting in pots which are less likely to release raw clay odors in tea.
Note: Just because it cost more does not mean it is made of quality clay. There are many varibles which account for price e.g. artist, and artistry (although it is unlikely that a well known artist will use cheaper clays). I personally like less artisitc and more functionable designs. I would recommend buying something older atleast 20y old from a reputable vendor. The older the pot, the better "chance" that it will be made of more quality clay.
The only thing I can suggests is to try it yourself. Brew a pot in a cheaper pot and compare it to brewed tea that was made in a better quality pot. You SHOULD find that the tea is much smoother, better mouth feel and sensations and much more bright.
Its best to invest as much as you can from the get go. First, if you buy cheaper pots and later learn more about tea, chances are you will buy a finer pot later. Secondly, it is much easier to resale your higher quality pot even for a profit than your run of the mill crappy zisha pot if need be.
why are the mines depleting?
why would anyone buy a 20+ year old yixing pot? are you referring to new or old pot? if it's new then i dont mind, but if it's old and used for 20 years then it's most likely used with more than 1 type of tea in that pot.
Mar 26th, '09, 20:27
Posts: 1936
Joined: May 22nd, '06, 11:28
Location: Trapped inside a bamboo tong!
Contact:
hop_goblin
Don't always believe what you think!
http://www.ancientteahorseroad.blogspot.com
http://englishtea.us/
http://www.ancientteahorseroad.blogspot.com
http://englishtea.us/
Hop stated part of the answer:
"Better pots are generally fired at a much higher temp resulting in pots which are less likely to release raw clay odors in tea. "
Clay minerals are river deposited. High quality China clays have been exploited for centuries for making porcelain - in Asia and in the West.
Why do you think it's called "china' when referring to porcelains, bone china, etc.?
These clay deposits were and are quite substantial. Some were mined out by the second half of the 20th C, and some were inundated by reservoir water from hydroelectric projects and irrigation impoundments (dams).
Better clays have fewer impurities. Better quality pots are made from clays that are *heavily* 'worked' and dewatered. Clay chemistry and clay mineral structure determine bound water content and porosity (but that is also dependent on how the clay is worked before an artist shapes and fires it.
Lastly, as mentioned by Hop and teaguy in other threads, firing temperature / firing conditions also determine the density and strength of the finished clays.
This is why the English (Staffordshire Potteries) built their production empire (of 150 years) on Chinese clays - because they were high quality and the labor was cheap for mining, working an storage of the clay.
Good clay rings when you thwack it gently. So does high quality porcelain and bone china.
Hops point on the flavor imparted from cheap pots is key here as well as pot integrity and durability.
"Better pots are generally fired at a much higher temp resulting in pots which are less likely to release raw clay odors in tea. "
Clay minerals are river deposited. High quality China clays have been exploited for centuries for making porcelain - in Asia and in the West.
Why do you think it's called "china' when referring to porcelains, bone china, etc.?
These clay deposits were and are quite substantial. Some were mined out by the second half of the 20th C, and some were inundated by reservoir water from hydroelectric projects and irrigation impoundments (dams).
Better clays have fewer impurities. Better quality pots are made from clays that are *heavily* 'worked' and dewatered. Clay chemistry and clay mineral structure determine bound water content and porosity (but that is also dependent on how the clay is worked before an artist shapes and fires it.
Lastly, as mentioned by Hop and teaguy in other threads, firing temperature / firing conditions also determine the density and strength of the finished clays.
This is why the English (Staffordshire Potteries) built their production empire (of 150 years) on Chinese clays - because they were high quality and the labor was cheap for mining, working an storage of the clay.
Good clay rings when you thwack it gently. So does high quality porcelain and bone china.
Hops point on the flavor imparted from cheap pots is key here as well as pot integrity and durability.
Intuit -- a slight problem with your answer there, since yixing clay do not come from riverbeds -- they are actually stones that are ground up and then mixed with water...
The cheapness or expensiveness of pots have nothing to do with whether or not there will be clay flavor left over. In fact, the price associated with any pot has little to do with anything really. Price is the last thing you want to use to judge a pot's quality.
The cheapness or expensiveness of pots have nothing to do with whether or not there will be clay flavor left over. In fact, the price associated with any pot has little to do with anything really. Price is the last thing you want to use to judge a pot's quality.
Yes, and how you brew the tea has far more to do with how the tea taste than any pot you use. A bad brewer can't make a good cup of tea even with the world's best pot, whereas an experienced tea maker can easily make a nice cup with the crappiest pot. This has been proven true time and again with many people I've had tea with.sp1key wrote:at the end of the day a good yixing wont make a bad tea taste good... its just part of the experience and art of tea.
Just saw your latest post in your site Marsh.
I too realise its a bit tough to stay on for such a long session if you're alone thats why I always love company.
another point to take note, a broth could be thin but still last for a long session of infusions. so perhaps thick/thin broth is another expect to consider when evaluating
I too realise its a bit tough to stay on for such a long session if you're alone thats why I always love company.
another point to take note, a broth could be thin but still last for a long session of infusions. so perhaps thick/thin broth is another expect to consider when evaluating
The raw materials for yixing clay are buried deep underground, sometimes under heavy sedimentary rock formations. When excavated, it is usually located within stratified layers of other clays. The seam of yixing zisha can be as thick as a several decimeters, up to a meter. Yixing clays consist of fine iron-containing silt, with mica, kaolinite and varying quantities of quartz and iron ores as its main mineral constituents.
Processing of raw zisha yixing clay involves removing the clay from the underlying strata, drying it under the sun in open stalls, and then pulverizing the dried clay pieces into fine particles. The clay powder then undergoes air screening to isolate clay particles of the finest grit size. The screened clay is then mixed with water in a cement mixer to a thick paste, piled into heaps, and vacuum processed to remove air bubbles, in addition to some moisture from the clay mixture. The quality and quantity of water in yixing clay is critical in that it determines the quality of the stoneware products produced. After this processing, the resulting clay is then ready to be used.
Blah, blah, blah.. "when purple clay was first mined around Lake Taihu in China.."
So yeah, its mined, dried and pulverized to start the processing (working) of the clay to remove impurities, to mix, and impart plasticity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yixing_clay
Yixing is in the broad Yangze River delta.
"It is situated on the northwest side of Taihu Lake, roughly at the center of a radius that links Nanjing, Wuxi, Suzhou, of Jiangsu Province, Shanghai, and Hangzhou of Zhejiang Province, one of the economic hotspots in the nation.
According to the Chinese, water adds sparkle to a place. In addition to being upstream of the famous lake, Yixing has three expanses of water so unique that a special word was coined to describe it. “Jiu” refers to something smaller than a lake but larger than a river.
http://zishateapot.net/archives/date/2009/03/17
Thick clay deposits tend to be river deposited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay
"Clay deposits are typically associated with very low energy depositional environments such as large lake (or wide river) and marine deposits."
Processing of raw zisha yixing clay involves removing the clay from the underlying strata, drying it under the sun in open stalls, and then pulverizing the dried clay pieces into fine particles. The clay powder then undergoes air screening to isolate clay particles of the finest grit size. The screened clay is then mixed with water in a cement mixer to a thick paste, piled into heaps, and vacuum processed to remove air bubbles, in addition to some moisture from the clay mixture. The quality and quantity of water in yixing clay is critical in that it determines the quality of the stoneware products produced. After this processing, the resulting clay is then ready to be used.
Blah, blah, blah.. "when purple clay was first mined around Lake Taihu in China.."
So yeah, its mined, dried and pulverized to start the processing (working) of the clay to remove impurities, to mix, and impart plasticity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yixing_clay
Yixing is in the broad Yangze River delta.
"It is situated on the northwest side of Taihu Lake, roughly at the center of a radius that links Nanjing, Wuxi, Suzhou, of Jiangsu Province, Shanghai, and Hangzhou of Zhejiang Province, one of the economic hotspots in the nation.
According to the Chinese, water adds sparkle to a place. In addition to being upstream of the famous lake, Yixing has three expanses of water so unique that a special word was coined to describe it. “Jiu” refers to something smaller than a lake but larger than a river.
http://zishateapot.net/archives/date/2009/03/17
Thick clay deposits tend to be river deposited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay
"Clay deposits are typically associated with very low energy depositional environments such as large lake (or wide river) and marine deposits."
Mar 26th, '09, 23:15
Posts: 1936
Joined: May 22nd, '06, 11:28
Location: Trapped inside a bamboo tong!
Contact:
hop_goblin
Intuit, your post was certainly very informative. My initial comments were meant to be taken in the context that ASSUMING the pot is genuinely made of better clay it would be more expensive. Additionally, further assuming that both brewers are competent enough to brew a decent cup of tea and all is equal, the person using the better pot will make a better cup of tea. If this statement if false then Gongfu cha, the art of brewing and tea culture is a bunch of crap. So, I totally agree with you as I can certainly tell the difference from different shapes and clays.
Mar 26th, '09, 23:24
Posts: 1936
Joined: May 22nd, '06, 11:28
Location: Trapped inside a bamboo tong!
Contact:
hop_goblin
Well you may be happy brewing in a styrofoam cup but I am not.MarshalN wrote:I think more of it is a bunch of crap than you think.hop_goblin wrote: If this statement if false then Gongfu cha, the art of brewing and tea culture is a bunch of crap.
Don't always believe what you think!
http://www.ancientteahorseroad.blogspot.com
http://englishtea.us/
http://www.ancientteahorseroad.blogspot.com
http://englishtea.us/
1. Mines are depleting because they have being mined for a long time already.LaybackPandas wrote: Although i still havn't own a Yixing pot yet and you seem to be very knowledgeable, it's alittle hard to believe that finer clay pot make better tea, have you taste the 2 between cheap vs expensive yixing pot using gung fu style and the same type of tea before?
why are the mines depleting?
why would anyone buy a 20+ year old yixing pot? are you referring to new or old pot? if it's new then i dont mind, but if it's old and used for 20 years then it's most likely used with more than 1 type of tea in that pot.
2. 20+ older teapot will most likely to be made of pure clay. Why? because way back good/pure clay were relatively cheap, even the pots that were not made by master crafts man were using pretty good clay
3. When you get an old pot if you clean it properly, it is possible to "de-season" a teapot then you will able to season with whatever tea you want to brew in it again.
4. Why the hack people care about pure clay? Good taste maybe.. but most importantly you know that it is not mixed with some random clay which might contain heavy metal and etc.
I am not very experienced when it comes to yixing clay, I own only one teapot from YSLLC, that cost me 55$, DHP clay, shui ping design, so I really have nothing to compare it too, but I own 2 japanese kyusu, my first kyusu was the hohryu from hibiki-an, and the second is from horaido, it is the work of Tachi Masaki, it is banko wear made of purple clay, it is signed and came with a certificate, I tried both kyusu with the same tea, and the banko always made tea more smoth and sweeter than the other, and even after two packs of tea it took the aroma of the tea in, when I take it out even if it has not seen tea in 4 month it still smells of sencha, now that is a good clay.
These are my clay pots.
These are my clay pots.
Has anybody bought teapots from Dragon teahouse, there are those claimed to be made of 30 years old clay http://cgi.ebay.com/Yixing-Zisha-Tea-Po ... .m14.l1262 Like this one.