Water Jars

[Herb_Master]

A container that holds more than 2l is going to be really heavy with the water. Is that really how large you'd want a water container to be? I think with the only tea ceremony I have seen that kneeling on the tatami, it would be very difficult to lift the water unless you were quite strong.

If this is for upstream of the actual ceremony, then that makes sense to have more than 2l of course.

The Japanese especially, but all Green Tea Drinkers may be wanting it for the ceremonial significance. But the High roasted oolong drinkers, and others are more likely to want it for the conditioning effect. It may need to hold several days tea needs, and be conditioned for 2 to 6 days.

It may be open topped with a removable lid, so that the water can be top drawn.


Or enclosed with a bottom tap such as this 2 litre
http://www.giftsoftheorient.co.uk/wine- ... -631-p.asp

[Drax]

A container that holds more than 2l is going to be really heavy with the water. Is that really how large you'd want a water container to be? I think with the only tea ceremony I have seen that kneeling on the tatami, it would be very difficult to lift the water unless you were quite strong.

If this is for upstream of the actual ceremony, then that makes sense to have more than 2l of course.

The Japanese especially, but all Green Tea Drinkers may be wanting it for the ceremonial significance. But the High roasted oolong drinkers, and others are more likely to want it for the conditioning effect. It may need to hold several days tea needs, and be conditioned for 2 to 6 days.

It may be open topped with a removable lid, so that the water can be top drawn.

Yes, I'd include myself with the bunch interested in the long-term effect.

Well, or really just storage of larger amounts of water. Basically I filter my water right now, but I also use the same filter to keep chilled water. But it's kind of wasteful, IMHO, to chill water and then boil it. So I keep a separate glass pitcher out on the counter. But it's the typical everyday glass pitcher with a handle, and as I mentioned, only holds about 2 liters. During a busy tea period, I have to fill it up a bunch.

That, and my pitcher has no lid, so I just put a paper towel over it. It's not very pretty.

So that's why *i'm* looking for. I could certainly see the desire or need for something smaller for ceremonial uses.

[wyardley]

A container that holds more than 2l is going to be really heavy with the water. Is that really how large you'd want a water container to be? I think with the only tea ceremony I have seen that kneeling on the tatami, it would be very difficult to lift the water unless you were quite strong.

I don't know about for Japanese tea ceremony, but in most uses I'm familiar with, I don't think you'd move the large water container, but rather leave it in one spot and transfer the water to a smaller vessel or a kettle directly from the water container (with a ladle type thing).

[chamekke]

A container that holds more than 2l is going to be really heavy with the water. Is that really how large you'd want a water container to be? I think with the only tea ceremony I have seen that kneeling on the tatami, it would be very difficult to lift the water unless you were quite strong.

I don't know about for Japanese tea ceremony, but in most uses I'm familiar with, I don't think you'd move the large water container, but rather leave it in one spot and transfer the water to a smaller vessel or a kettle directly from the water container (with a ladle type thing).

In Japanese tea ceremony, you typically carry the full (to 90% of capacity) water jar, or mizusashi, into the room, kneel, and put it into position; then you lift and carry it out again at the end of the procedure. There are exceptions - for example when a tana or shelf is used, in which case the mizusashi generally stays in place from beginning to end - but a mizusashi should always be lightweight enough so that it is not difficult to carry and place even when filled close to capacity. After all, Rikyu said that we "should treat a heavy object as though it were light and a light object as though it were heavy," so it's good when we're not moving the mizusashi with grunts of effort

Of course, Japanese tea ceremony is very specialized, but I thought I'd mention this point in case you wanted to sell your water jars to people who want them for this purpose.

[coloradopu]

i made a few and they are working fine so far.

one sweets a little on the bottom and 2 have S cracks so now they are tea storage

the only things i see good so fare is the 1.possible Fe increase in the water from any unglazed area 2. the o2 content "depends on water - i use deep rock water from a well" the rest will give the o2 time to get into the water. 3. any sulfur or other off gassing "there is a town in Co. were gas comes out of the faucet that you can lite on fire." 4. the nice looking jar on the tea table which makes nice sounds when used.

i bet a good ladle can be made too from the same material the pot is and add to the use of the jar.

[Tead Off]

A container that holds more than 2l is going to be really heavy with the water. Is that really how large you'd want a water container to be? I think with the only tea ceremony I have seen that kneeling on the tatami, it would be very difficult to lift the water unless you were quite strong.

If this is for upstream of the actual ceremony, then that makes sense to have more than 2l of course.

Moss,

There seems to be 2 different uses for water jars. The first is storage for general use. This would be a larger volume jar ideally fitted with lid and tap on the bottom. It would sit on a wooden stand.

The 2nd would be a mizusashi, used in the tea ceremony to draw water from. This would have to be smaller in order to carry it around. And, I think for the purpose of testing a jar, no more than a litre capacity would do it.

But, what kind of clay are you going to use? You can reduce any clay but if it doesn't have a high enough iron content, the result will not be noticeable.

[Tead Off]

Here are the basic parameters:

Filtered tap water from Adagio Utilitea
Control - Glass container
Subject 1 - Moss's Magic Ferrite Jar
Subject 2 - Purion Jar

Water should rest in all containers for the same length of time (overnight?) and be drawn from the top.

I would normally use a Purion kettle but that would probably defeat the purpose of the test. I will use a glass kettle.

Teas:
Yancha, high fire
Spring 09 Green (Long Jing?)
80s Sheng Puerh
09 Green Puerh

This is a little ambitious but I think I am up to it. TIM did a good write up on spring/filtered/filtered + jarred but I have never seen a head to head comparison of different materials. Question comes up quite a lot so lets put it to rest.

...If someone would like to donate a Ming dynasty water jar to the cause, please PM me

One major caveat is that I am not set up to boil 3 identical kettles and operate 3 gaiwans simultaneously. Tests will be conducted serially and you are going to have to put some faith into my judgment.

Using neutral materials like glass and porcelain should be good as clay would probably impart a flavor to the brews.

I just returned from Hong Kong where I bought some bamboo charcoal. I put a piece in my Brita water jar. I watched this charcoal emit tiny bubbles for quite some time. The instructions said to drink water after standing for 2 hours. Bangkok water never tasted so good!

In light of this, I would also be interested if you had any bamboo charcoal that you could include in this experiment. It's hard to imagine better tasting water than this. And, a very inexpensive way for anyone to get better tasting water.

[wyardley]

There seems to be 2 different uses for water jars. The first is storage for general use. This would be a larger volume jar ideally fitted with lid and tap on the bottom. It would sit on a wooden stand.

The only concern I have about a tap on the bottom is that part of the point of resting water is letting stuff in the water settle. I think drawing water from the bottom would be the opposite of what you want.

[Tead Off]

There seems to be 2 different uses for water jars. The first is storage for general use. This would be a larger volume jar ideally fitted with lid and tap on the bottom. It would sit on a wooden stand.

The only concern I have about a tap on the bottom is that part of the point of resting water is letting stuff in the water settle. I think drawing water from the bottom would be the opposite of what you want.

It's a good point, but, perhaps most users of such a system might be putting filtered water into the water storage jar. I know I would. But I'm not sure that a tap is fitted at the very bottom where any sediment still in the water would gather. I'll have to look at that Purion jar again.

[Oni]

I saw a great purion jar, that holds 10 liters, and it opens only at the top, I was thinking that I could ladle out the amount desired with a hisaku.

[wyardley]

It's a good point, but, perhaps most users of such a system might be putting filtered water into the water storage jar. I know I would. But I'm not sure that a tap is fitted at the very bottom where any sediment still in the water would gather. I'll have to look at that Purion jar again.

Even filtered water has minerals in it, or should... (unless it's distilled or RO filtered, which most people don't want to use for their tea).

[Moss]

OK. Lots here to talk about.

1. Filtered water is OK for you but distilled water is not. You can over-filter. You need to have some minerals in it. Pure water leaches minerals from your body if it doesn't have them in the water already. Water is mildly acidic, remember that it is hydrogen and oxygen and some part of that is constantly changing from water back and forth to free hydrogen and oxygen, both of which are corrosive, one an oxidizer and the other a reducer which look for minerals to bind with. Best water has light mineral content for health.

(caveat... this is for minerals, not bacteria and contaminants in the water. If you live where the water is bad, by all means filtered or distilled water is best.)

2. Size of container. Clearly there are two needs, does anyone have a traditional name for a large water container? A mizusashi is what I am familiar with and should be light enough to move without straining.

3. Tap. I don't do taps because I don't trust the connection with the clay. I know there are people that do, so that is going to be for them. I can do covered jars. Threw one this morning as a test and it came out a treat.

4. clay bodies - Almost all clay bodies contain iron to some degree or another with porcelain having the least. I am going to cheat though and mix pure iron(ii)oxide and a little ball clay to help it adhere and coat the interior of my test jar. That interior should be much the same chemically as a pure iron jar. This is generally a bad thing to do with metallic oxides, but Iron is the least hazardous of any that we use in pottery.

[Tead Off]

Moss,

The whole argument concerning clay quality and how it effects water is a big subject. There are some clays that have proven over time to be superior. These clays almost always have a high iron content or some other mineral that changes water. Adding iron oxides do nothing but change the color. In fact, that is not what tea drinkers want. They want a pure clay. This is why the yixing clay became so important and sought after.

In Japan, you also have clay that is high in iron and changes the water. The bankoyaki clay I tbelieve is 6-12% in iron. The teapots from this area are baked in reduction oven and become quite purple, activating the iron content just like the reduced tetsubin. Purple clay, zisha, from yixing, is tops on the list.

For a quick primer, you can go to hojotea.com and read about the clays there. It is one of the few informative sites on materials used and will give you an overview on clay.

[coloradopu]

how do

i have found a purple clay here in the US. the best i can describe it is it has a high iron content--very high. and when you see it from oh lets say 1 mile away in its natural setting it is sooooo purple you can't dismiss it. i have refined some and mined a good bit to still be refined. it has a high sand content in its natural state which is very fine. very fine indeed. it fires lower then cone 6. at 6 it starts to vertify too much and bubbles and also turns black with pits. so i put it in the earthenware category. at cone o4 it changes little and at cone 4 or even 3 it has a sound and color of yixing clay. i know its not the same clay and i have never touched unfired yixing clay before but the end product is very close. i am at a point were i need it to be tested for metal content and wonder if anyone here can help. if you are interested in this PM me and i will come up with some sort of post with pics of clay/o'natural and some test fire sticks i did. i have no good pots yet but am working on that as it is very hard to throw the stuff.

oh and i have seen vids of the wet yixing clay and this stuff looks like a dead ringer too.

love the idea of the water jar and am still testing the one i have and am sending one to herb_master as well. so fare its good but i have no unglazed stuff of a size to hold a days water. i will make some because i want to do the charcoal thing too and i want to keep some rain water too. i do not know if rain waters is such a good idea but i think with the cost of the stuff here and at the altitude i am at you just can't pass on a try.

please post more on the charcoal thing and if you know how to make it too. i have an idea of how to suspend the stuff in a basket inside the jar with a silk string and so on but i need more info in its use and well i need to touch it to understand.

[Moss]

"Adding iron oxides do nothing but change the color. "

Not true. Adding oxides modify the interface between the clay and the interior. If that iron is in glass formers, then it acts as a colorant and forms a glaze, if it is NOT in enough glass former to create a glaze, then the iron oxide is simply iron on the inside of the pot which is what you want for this test.

Iron in the clay and iron applied to the outside are identical chemically. If the clay is totally vitrified, no water is going to enter it anyway. The chemical changes in the water from ionization or whatever are going to occur in the interface between the clay and the water. So if you modify the interface of the interior to be iron, you are going to get the best possible interface between the iron and the water. Bet you a dollar on that.

If you add iron oxide thickly enough and reduce, you end up with iron on the inside of the pot. Just like a tetsubin.

If the desirable mineral is not iron, then it won't matter of course, but if it is iron, that will do the trick.

Now regards other clays, the combination of firing and maturity may be the key. If the iron is only part of the issue, then a clay that is reduced, but not fired totally to maturity, it may remain porous enough to create more surface area for the water to exchange with the other minerals in the clay.