Why is Yixing the best clay?

[wyardley]

I would agree that it is a business and they speculate this experience but im dissagre that vendors in Hong-Kong know better, i lived in HK for a while and i can say that prices are too high.

With the little I know of a few of the HK shops (at least based on their overseas branches and comments from friends), I would venture to guess that many of them have high markups because they get a lot of nouveaux riche customers who want to buy "the best" and don't care what they pay (or believe that bargaining is beneath them). It never hurts to bargain a little -- I imagine many places would give you a 10-30% price break without a lot of hassle. I think it's also helpful to buy some medium price pots from a vendor before even thinking about buying the really expensive stuff.... you'll start to get some idea of how the vendor's pots are (if you're happy with them long term, if they make good tea, etc.), as well as develop a sense of (roughly) what their markup is, or at least how their prices compare to other vendors'.

If the asking price is too high, you, as the consumer, always have the power to walk away.

[mornemir]

What i really wanted to say is that their prices are too high for the stuff they sell Maby later ill post pictures of teapots i bought there some 7 years ago they are nothing special but for that price i could get really nice things inmainland. You are right about their target market anyway... business is business.

[Aphroditea]

All clays are based on kaolinite(starting from 47%).

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Clay is a particle size smaller than silt, usually .005mm or less. A clay mineral which is any mineral or rock comprised mostly of particles this size is often simply referred to as 'clay'. Kaolinite is the most represented clay mineral (to be precise) in the Kaolin group, but others certainly exist. There are also other groups of clay minerals. They are sorted by the elements found in their matrices as well as particular configurations of their molecular structures (known as sheets).

I am do not understand "based on kaolinte" since kaolinite is one type of clay mineral in a group of similar minerals. And I am not sure what the 47% refers to...silica? Kaolin group members are heavier on aluminum than other clays typically - giving them a whitish color. I was saying that iron-rich minerals can be found that can give kaolin members (or any clay mineral, actually) a purple, red, or orangish color. I was just noting that there are clay mineral profiles similar to yixing to be found in other places. So, could you please clarify your statement?

[mornemir]

All clays are based on kaolinite(starting from 47%).

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Clay is a particle size smaller than silt, usually .005mm or less. A clay mineral which is any mineral or rock comprised mostly of particles this size is often simply referred to as 'clay'. Kaolinite is the most represented clay mineral (to be precise) in the Kaolin group, but others certainly exist. There are also other groups of clay minerals. They are sorted by the elements found in their matrices as well as particular configurations of their molecular structures (known as sheets).

I am do not understand "based on kaolinte" since kaolinite is one type of clay mineral in a group of similar minerals. And I am not sure what the 47% refers to...silica? Kaolin group members are heavier on aluminum than other clays typically - giving them a whitish color. I was saying that iron-rich minerals can be found that can give kaolin members (or any clay mineral, actually) a purple, red, or orangish color. I was just noting that there are clay mineral profiles similar to yixing to be found in other places. So, could you please clarify your statement?

I beg your pardon, but yee is making sense.

[Aphroditea]

I beg your pardon, but yee is making sense.

In which case, I think we might be talking about different things? Is the sentence a reference to the mix, post-harvest, of the clays that are used by the ceramics studios?

I am referring to in situ clay minerals, and since kaolinite was brought up earlier I focused on that one. I could talk about another type of clay mineral...illite, perhaps? It most certainly is not kaolinite, nor 'based on' kaolinite. And would make lousy ceramics

I admit it has been a couple of years since I have had to use my geology training, but even with my books in front of me I am not sure to what yee is referring.

[bearsbearsbears]

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Clay is a particle size smaller than silt, usually .005mm or less. A clay mineral which is any mineral or rock comprised mostly of particles this size is often simply referred to as 'clay'. Kaolinite is the most represented clay mineral (to be precise) in the Kaolin group, but others certainly exist. There are also other groups of clay minerals. They are sorted by the elements found in their matrices as well as particular configurations of their molecular structures (known as sheets).

I am do not understand "based on kaolinte" since kaolinite is one type of clay mineral in a group of similar minerals. And I am not sure what the 47% refers to...silica? Kaolin group members are heavier on aluminum than other clays typically - giving them a whitish color. I was saying that iron-rich minerals can be found that can give kaolin members (or any clay mineral, actually) a purple, red, or orangish color. I was just noting that there are clay mineral profiles similar to yixing to be found in other places. So, could you please clarify your statement?

Indeed, kaolin deposits are all over the world. England, the US (Georgia, et al), Australia, New Zealand...the sources are endless. There are also plenty of sources of iron rich clays around the world; iron-rich clay deposits are more abundant than iron-free clay deposits. Utah, California, Arizona, and the rest of the American southwest are lands loaded with red clay; California and New York even have deposits of dark brown and black clays.

I have read that yixing deposits are particularly micaceous and high in feldspathic materials, which may explain why it burnishes well and vitrifies at lower temperatures (around cone 0-3) without the addition of fluxing agents. The fine particle size, while not unique to yixing, does make it good for fine detailing if very difficult to work with. It's also not terribly plastic without the addition of plasticizers, hence why many yixing clays are better suited to hand-building techniques, rather than wheel throwing.

The more I look into clay geology and the more my own passion for clay leads me to understand more about clays and making ceramics, the less I believe yixing could have near-magical tea-enhancing properties. Explanations of its iron content and porosity don't convince me, because these are easily found in other deposits and easily imitated in custom clay bodies. I think most of that talk is simply marketing.

However, having been at pottery for a year and a half, my admiration for yixing craftsman increased exponentially. That kind of craftsmanship is incredibly difficult to master, even moreso at that size.

[Aphroditea]

I have read that yixing deposits are particularly micaceous and high in feldspathic materials, which may explain why it burnishes well and vitrifies at lower temperatures (around cone 0-3) without the addition of fluxing agents. The fine particle size, while not unique to yixing, does make it good for fine detailing if very difficult to work with. It's also not terribly plastic without the addition of plasticizers, hence why many yixing clays are better suited to hand-building techniques, rather than wheel throwing.

The more I look into clay geology and the more my own passion for clay leads me to understand more about clays and making ceramics, the less I believe yixing could have near-magical tea-enhancing properties. Explanations of its iron content and porosity don't convince me, because these are easily found in other deposits and easily imitated in custom clay bodies. I think most of that talk is simply marketing.

Bears, thank you for your post! I really don't know much of anything about how clays as used in ceramics - only what can be found in a field or on a geologic survey! I was checking a map of clays and the kaolinite deposits are marked, but the specific and unique mineral signatures were not listed. I agree that I cannot see how the very basic components of a kaolin clay could be the answer. If it is significally micaceous that explains the sheen (iirc, micas have a low fusibility). The Feldspar content COULD plausibly explain some of the color as well as the iron. I would be curious to know how the amount of aluminum in the matrix affects sheen. I am also curious about what is added to make it pliable as the more mica contained the more brittle and stiff the clay (such as the illite that I mentioned above!). But, as you say, I still cannot see how these elements lead to "near-magical tea-enhancing qualities".

I would love to talk to you more about this, because I have the geology background to understand that portion of the puzzle, but I don't really know how what comes out of the ground is then altered in a studio setting.

[wyardley]

Whether or not Yixing clay has magical properties, it has a rich history and tradition, and I think that in and of itself is reason enough to be interested in Yixing pots and pottery.

And even if other clays have similar properties, Yixing clay still has proved to be good for making tea over quite a long period of time, so it's not like using Yixing clay is a bad choice, even if it's not the only one.

[bearsbearsbears]

Bears, thank you for your post! I really don't know much of anything about how clays as used in ceramics - only what can be found in a field or on a geologic survey! I was checking a map of clays and the kaolinite deposits are marked, but the specific and unique mineral signatures were not listed. I agree that I cannot see how the very basic components of a kaolin clay could be the answer. If it is significally micaceous that explains the sheen (iirc, micas have a low fusibility). The Feldspar content COULD plausibly explain some of the color as well as the iron. I would be curious to know how the amount of aluminum in the matrix affects sheen. I am also curious about what is added to make it pliable as the more mica contained the more brittle and stiff the clay (such as the illite that I mentioned above!). But, as you say, I still cannot see how these elements lead to "near-magical tea-enhancing qualities".

Micaceous clays, from what I can recall, were popular in New Mexico amongst native americans and Spanish/Mexican settlers for making cookware, such as bean pots, which you can still buy online. These have incredible sheens. I believe these are fired to the border of terra cotta and stoneware temperatures, cone 06-2 (http://www.coyoteclay.com/clay.html), a similar range to yixing. If this micaceous clay has a high temperature melt and throws well, it must be because of fluxing agents and other clays (ball clays?) present in addition to the mica.

it'd be fun to make a micaceous clay yixing analogue, and see how it performs.

[Pouvla]

Awesome, had no idea my questions would spark so much discussion and information

Seems there is alot of the clay that makes yixing pots what they are, but that the potters and the mystic belongs to yixing.
If yixing is starting to run out of their own good clay, why dont they get some shipped from other good sources? Cant imagine digging clay up and sending it on a boat can be terrible expensive, or is it not worth in if the pots sell by themselves via tea-religion and marketing?

[Chip]

I beg your pardon, but yee is making sense.

I beg your pardon, but Yee and Mornimer share IP's. Is this 2 ... or 3 members?

[evilberg]

I beg your pardon, but yee is making sense.

I beg your pardon, but Yee and Mornimer share IP's. Is this 2 ... or 3 members?

BURNED!
Haha, that is why I love the internet.

[xuancheng]

The vast majority of people in Yixing also do not have the same sort of Tea culture as many other places where Chinese people live. In general, many Yixing potters drink only red tea: Yixing or Yangxian hong. They don't understand what clay type, pot thickness or firing temperature will affect different types of tea. For these types of questions you are better off asking people from HK, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Fuzhou, Guangzhou, etc. Yixing people are good at making the pots though

It's a matter of who you associate with. It's a matter of what potter you are naming. Using groups to generalize fews (as few as Yixing gets) is the most common mistake when people get to understand China. You have to understand the Cultural Revolution, how communism tried to eliminate elitism or how China's first peasant emperor Zhu Yuan Zhang tried to destroy aristocracy, so at the end, this is what China got, looked down upon by the world, cunning merchants, but China is big..hell of complication. Chinese generosity gave cunning potter feed their family, grand masters say nothing about fake yixing producers, but that's just part of Chinese culture, but it seems they also started to realize good and bad.

And no, HK, Taiwan, Singaporean don't understand much as Yixing people do (ok, selected people). Serious clay study just had been started since 90's, cos that's when Yixing clay saw its end in quantity.

You are not actually refuting anything I have said. I did not say Yixing people don't understand clay. They obviously do.

As you have implied, I do not know any famous masters. Nor anyone else worth knowing. However, the vast majority of people in Yixing do not know very much about pairing tea with pots based on shape clay type wall thickness etc. I asked this question to tens of craftsmen in Yixing. Their answer was invariably "this pot is best for red tea" -- or -- "this pot is good for any tea." Of course, this is not important because pairing teas and pots is often based completely on personal preference or hearsay.

The problem is in Chinese, fermentation and oxidization are not usually differentiated

Fermentation is 发酵, oxidation is 氧化, the difference, at least most of Puerh drinkers in Korea understand it, I don't know why you or the Chinese see the difficulties.

Still, in Chinese -- just like in English -- many people say fermented when they mean oxidized when they are talking about tea, and when they are talking about Yixing clay. I hope someday the Chinese and I will be able to rise above our difficulty in understanding. Again, I am just a peon in the world of tea. If I knew some famous masters I am sure they would differentiate meticulously in their choice of words, and I too would sneer at the lowly tea philistine who knew not.

[xuancheng]

Very interesting topic! My grandfather was a geologist so i know alittle about stones and minerals, but it does not matter cause if you want to check if the clay is really unique you have to do the research yourself But i can say that the experience of Yixing artists is unique. I would agree that it is a business and they speculate this experience but im dissagre that vendors in Hong-Kong know better, i lived in HK for a while and i can say that prices are too high.

If you lived in HK, you will know that rents are high. You could probably get a much bigger, nicer shop in Yixing for a tenth of the price of a shop in HK

[Tead Off]

Oxidation and fermentation are 2 completely different things. They are not interchangeable. Even some sellers of tea wrongly describe some teas as being fermented like oolongs. Puerh is a fermented tea. It is a process of purposely introducing bacteria into the tea to change its structure.

Do they ferment yixing clay? Or, do they soak and sieve repeatedly?