Ivory, really?

[JBaymore]

Yes... a gold foil. Gold leaf type thing.

It is a holdover from an old tradition. Back in the day, a far more deadly day, sometimes the matcha was poisoned. The gold on the inside with the tea would show the contamination by tarnishing. So if the gold was pristine, you were safe.

Not to mention.... the "richness" aspect of gold.

Plus the soft foil layer helped a bit to "seal" the top of the chaire.

best,

..................john

[kyarazen]

Yes... a gold foil. Gold leaf type thing.

It is a holdover from an old tradition. Back in the day, a far more deadly day, sometimes the matcha was poisoned. The gold on the inside with the tea would show the contamination by tarnishing. So if the gold was pristine, you were safe.

Not to mention.... the "richness" aspect of gold.

Plus the soft foil layer helped a bit to "seal" the top of the chaire.

best,

..................john

silver would have had been a better choice wouldnt it? they used to have silver hairpins, silver chopsticks for that purpose

[blairswhitaker]

..........(aside from people who harvest the gold from the underside, then resell the top)

WOW! Never thought of that. Gold leaf is thin........ but if you accumulate a LOT of gold leaf. Very interesting.

On this topic, that practice seems (considering shipping costs and other), as effective as soaking computer chips for the gold conductors.. Do people really do the lid thing?

yes, people do, and there is no shipping cost here in kyoto, people buy them locally for next to nothing, especially from estate sales. it's not a super common practice but some people do it. you can usually tell when you go to the market and someone has a huge pile of lids for sale, and there is not a trace of gold on the bottom. a regular antique lid even one that has been used very heavily will still have small remnants of gold stuck to it.

It is really gold?

Also keep in mind that chaire were believed to be originally imported from China as medicine containers, and gold and ivory were considered to be some of the most pure, neutral materials available. They were reportedly used to contain ground and powdered plant, fungus, and animal products used in Chinese medicines and tea was originally used as a medicine in China and this is how it was also introduced to Japan, first as s medicine. it would not be until many years later that it would be seen as something to drink because it was enjoyable.

I should consider a separate thread to actually deal with chaire as this thread is about people's moral and ethical stance on Ivory. On with I am holding to the zen dharma and not making any judgement. Creating a duality of saying something is good or bad is not conductive to practicing dharma.

[rdl]

Creating a duality of saying something is good or bad is not conductive to practicing dharma.

A practitioner practices and needn't speak. Following the precept of non-violence will lead to correct thoughts and actions pertaining to this discussion. Each will choose that path as they deem proper.

[kyarazen]

Creating a duality of saying something is good or bad is not conductive to practicing dharma.

A practitioner practices and needn't speak. Following the precept of non-violence will lead to correct thoughts and actions pertaining to this discussion. Each will choose that path as they deem proper.

a practitioner should not speak and not engage in non-speech though
practice in some ways is to reduce attachment and not increase aversion, not reduce aversion and increase attachment...

[William]

Back in the day, a far more deadly day, sometimes the matcha was poisoned. The gold on the inside with the tea would show the contamination by tarnishing. So if the gold was pristine, you were safe.

This is a kind of legend or something that can actually happen (the tarnishing of the gold foil)?

Ps. Thank you all for the explanation!

[JBaymore]

Back in the day, a far more deadly day, sometimes the matcha was poisoned. The gold on the inside with the tea would show the contamination by tarnishing. So if the gold was pristine, you were safe.

This is a kind of legend or something that can actually happen (the tarnishing of the gold foil)?

Ps. Thank you all for the explanation!

That is my understanding.... a coupler of "tea people" have told me that over the years... but I can't say 100% that is DOES happen.

best,

.................john

[ethan]

blairswhitaker et. al.,

Thanks for this discussion of chaire -- the gold etc. & why.

I think it is quite interesting & belongs here. Some diversion from the "heavy" issue is quite helpful.

cheers

[William]

Back in the day, a far more deadly day, sometimes the matcha was poisoned. The gold on the inside with the tea would show the contamination by tarnishing. So if the gold was pristine, you were safe.

This is a kind of legend or something that can actually happen (the tarnishing of the gold foil)?

Ps. Thank you all for the explanation!

That is my understanding.... a coupler of "tea people" have told me that over the years... but I can't say 100% that is DOES happen.

best,

.................john

Someone should undergo an experiment in the name of science!
Thank you again, John!

[Chip]

... When tradition is proclaimed as why something is carried on for no really good reason sometimes with tragic, meaningless consequences, I remember required reading in junior high, a short story called The Lottery by Shirley Jackson.

The story was quite compelling and to someone as young as I was it was almost like reading horror. I do not remember many details, but basically the story was about an annual lottery carried out in a small ... American village amid lots of excitement and fanfare.

Tragically, the "winner" each year would somehow be executed for no apparent reason except this was tradition and was how it always had been.

I have had over a month now to wonder why ivory lids continue to be made and applied to new and old chaire. The only explanation has been that it is tradition and has been done this way for ... a long time ... it is therefore the way it is done. The chain of tradition is unbroken.

The tragedy continues to be as it has always been, the use of poached ivory and the slaughter of elephants who won the lottery ...

[ethan]

"Lottery in June; corn coming up soon."

Annual human sacrifice for the sake of a good harvest, was what happened in the story.

not based on real practice but sort of related to the executions of "witches" in Salem in New England's early years

w/virgins being raped in Africa by men w/ Aids to cure themselves & rape & murder being a path to paradise for some fanatical Muslims on their version of jihad & water-boarding not being called torture.... etc. etc.-- I'd say human beings have maintained the ability to embrace terrible ideas & practices

Sort of makes us who think tea can have very special effects seem rather sane.

[chingwa]

edit.... oops! I posted out of order, reading the first page thinking it was the last page.

[Chip]

"Lottery in June; corn coming up soon."

Annual human sacrifice for the sake of a good harvest, was what happened in the story.

not based on real practice but sort of related to the executions of "witches" in Salem in New England's early years

The Lottery story line has also been borrowed and modified numerous times. The Hunger Games comes to mind ...

And yes, there are no shortages of human cruelty, past or present. But I digress ...

[jayinhk]

You'd think we'd have made enough progress by 2015 to know better. Apparently (and sadly) not...

[Chip]

You'd think we'd have made enough progress by 2015 to know better. Apparently (and sadly) not...

Small victory, katsuragi is not presently selling chaire ... in fact several ebay sites that had been are not.