Essence of Tea new yixing

[Tead Off]

I'm not sure what either one of you mean by 'thirsty'. If it is meant to indicate a pot that is very porous and absorbs flavor to a point where it robs the liquor from essential flavor, then hongni is not 'thirsty' if it is high fired. Pots that are porous to the point of robbing the liquor are low fired. I am purposely being simplistic in the explanation to give a sort of guideline.

Generally, it's said that the earlier F1 pots used very high quality clays, be it zhuni, hongni, etc. There is also the techniques used to prepare the raw clay into workable/usable condition for the forming of the pottery. These were well guarded secrets. Getting a high grade clay is the first step, but there are other steps that go into the production that will make a difference to the eventual outcome of a teapot. And, of course, the firing itself.

Lumping teapots into general classifications don't do justice to the discussion. There are lousy F1 pots and great modern pots, but the understanding must be very broad to distinguish why this is so. My 2 paisa.

[jayinhk]

TeadOff, yes, robbing the tea of aroma and flavor. My modern pots seem to do this regardless of clay type. They are all high fired. My latest modern zhuni seems to be better in this regard, but it was a $30 Taobao special!

[BW85]

I think you'll find a lot of disagreement with your assertion that hongni is inferior clay! Zini usually gets that label from those in the know

I would say there could be some merit to that, also in that red clays are less abundant, but I don't think hong ni is necessarily superior to zini. There is some very fine zini out there that won't steal aroma or flavor from tea. Most of the pots EoT sells are zini, seems David has a preference for it

[jayinhk]

I think you'll find a lot of disagreement with your assertion that hongni is inferior clay! Zini usually gets that label from those in the know

I would say there could be some merit to that, also in that red clays are less abundant, but I don't think hong ni is necessarily superior to zini. There is some very fine zini out there that won't steal aroma or flavor from tea. Most of the pots EoT sells are zini, seems David has a preference for it

Or could it be that zini is the way to go for humid stored pu erh and liu bao, which is EoTs focus?

[LouPepe]

I am certainly one who prefers high quality zini. And across a pretty broad range of teas. I've dabbled with quite a few clays and have had tea from hongni/zhuni/duanni/mixed clay pots from friends/acquaintances, my own pots, etc. But there is just something about a good zini pot that I don't get from the red and duanni clays. Any clay for that matter (Japanese, Taiwanese, Novak, local, etc.)
Some kind of balance, fullness, and if it's good clay even those high notes. Love the purple

[jayinhk]

For shu and high roast oolong, or traditional storage pu erh or hei cha, zini is absolutely my choice. For less roasty oolong and Wuyi, finer zini or hongni if the quality is there. I wouldn't put dancong in zini, but I've been using hongni for dancong recently. Hongni for younger pu erh too, if it is at an intermediate stage or dry storage. Some who know much more than I do tend to use their Yixings this way!

[Alex]

I am certainly one who prefers high quality zini. And across a pretty broad range of teas. I've dabbled with quite a few clays and have had tea from hongni/zhuni/duanni/mixed clay pots from friends/acquaintances, my own pots, etc. But there is just something about a good zini pot that I don't get from the red and duanni clays. Any clay for that matter (Japanese, Taiwanese, Novak, local, etc.)
Some kind of balance, fullness, and if it's good clay even those high notes. Love the purple

Just had some green tgy from one of the Lu Wei fang zini pots. Beautiful cup of tea! Superb clay. Could see it being great fit with a lot of teas. It was certainly a far better brew then from my modern zhuni and hongni. But they arent in same league of quality. Anyway I've certainly never used such fine clay as this. Hats off to David!

[steanze]

Mmm just chiming in with my perspective on this whole discussion.

1) Different types of clay also come in different levels of quality. The idea that hongni is "lower quality clay" came out of a comparison between late Qing/ROC zhuni and factory 1 period hongni, and as far as I can tell it was mostly based on aesthetic considerations (zhuni is denser and shinier from the start) rather than on the effect of the two materials on tea, which is quite similar. Note that this was a comparison between late Qing/ROC zhuni and early factory hongni, so it is not about modern zhuni, nor about zini. I would be surprised if you found reputable sources saying that hongni is lower quality than zini. In general xiao hongni is rarer and more sought after than zini - the good xiao hongni runs out at the end of the '70s, while you can still find pretty good zini throughout the '80s and '90s, and in some cases even in modern pots. Hongni in the 80s and 90s is ok, modern hongni and zhuni is rarely decent, with some notable exceptions that are quite pricey (around $500+ in the Chinese market). Finding decent modern zini is a lot easier and cheaper. It does not mean it is "lower quality", there is just more of it. This is probably also why EoT carries more zini pots.

2) To my knowledge Factory 1 never made zhuni pots.

3) There is some amount of personal preference playing a role, depending on how much you value thickness and smoothness over complexity and aromatics. For instance I prefer my yancha in hongni/zhuni and I'd consider putting green TGY in zini as a disaster, but other people may have other preferences

[BW85]

For shu and high roast oolong, or traditional storage pu erh or hei cha, zini is absolutely my choice. For less roasty oolong and Wuyi, finer zini or hongni if the quality is there. I wouldn't put dancong in zini, but I've been using hongni for dancong recently. Hongni for younger pu erh too, if it is at an intermediate stage or dry storage. Some who know much more than I do tend to use their Yixings this way!

Didn't you say while in Taiwan a shop owner was brewing gaoshan in a small zini pot with surprisingly good results?

Yes zini is good for aged puerh, but it can also be good for young fresh puerh. I also brew aged puerh in red clay sometimes. Yancha, I have both zini and 90's modern zhuni pots that I use depending on my mood, and the zini performs just as well as the red clay. I have had amazing green tea brewed in a zini pot, just as drax mentioned. So I just don't think it can be generalized too much, clay type to tea type. It depends on the clay quality, the skill with which the clay was processed and prepared, the firing of the pot, and personal preference

[BW85]

I am certainly one who prefers high quality zini. And across a pretty broad range of teas. I've dabbled with quite a few clays and have had tea from hongni/zhuni/duanni/mixed clay pots from friends/acquaintances, my own pots, etc. But there is just something about a good zini pot that I don't get from the red and duanni clays. Any clay for that matter (Japanese, Taiwanese, Novak, local, etc.)
Some kind of balance, fullness, and if it's good clay even those high notes. Love the purple

Just had some green tgy from one of the Lu Wei fang zini pots. Beautiful cup of tea! Superb clay. Could see it being great fit with a lot of teas. It was certainly a far better brew then from my modern zhuni and hongni. But they arent in same league of quality. Anyway I've certainly never used such fine clay as this. Hats off to David!

Those pots are quite lovely! So many, and all beautiful! I've resisted buying one only because I picked up one of the 90's dragon kiln pots from when he first started with all the new yixings

Do you have a photo of the Lu Wei fang pot you nabbed?

[jayinhk]

For shu and high roast oolong, or traditional storage pu erh or hei cha, zini is absolutely my choice. For less roasty oolong and Wuyi, finer zini or hongni if the quality is there. I wouldn't put dancong in zini, but I've been using hongni for dancong recently. Hongni for younger pu erh too, if it is at an intermediate stage or dry storage. Some who know much more than I do tend to use their Yixings this way!

Didn't you say while in Taiwan a shop owner was brewing gaoshan in a small zini pot with surprisingly good results?

Actually, after I posted that I wondered if it might have been red clay with a lot of patina!

Interesting that you have had such good results with zini. I only have one finer zini pot and it is indeed very different from my locally purchased, sandy pin zini pots. It works well with yancha, but my high roast oolong pot kills all lighter roasted yancha aroma. Now I want more zini, too!

[Tead Off]

For shu and high roast oolong, or traditional storage pu erh or hei cha, zini is absolutely my choice. For less roasty oolong and Wuyi, finer zini or hongni if the quality is there. I wouldn't put dancong in zini, but I've been using hongni for dancong recently. Hongni for younger pu erh too, if it is at an intermediate stage or dry storage. Some who know much more than I do tend to use their Yixings this way!

Didn't you say while in Taiwan a shop owner was brewing gaoshan in a small zini pot with surprisingly good results?

Actually, after I posted that I wondered if it might have been red clay with a lot of patina!

Interesting that you have had such good results with zini. I only have one finer zini pot and it is indeed very different from my locally purchased, sandy pin zini pots. It works well with yancha, but my high roast oolong pot kills all lighter roasted yancha aroma. Now I want more zini, too!

IMO, in a high quality pot, be it zhuni, zini, hongni, the skill of the brewer is the deciding factor.

[jayinhk]

For shu and high roast oolong, or traditional storage pu erh or hei cha, zini is absolutely my choice. For less roasty oolong and Wuyi, finer zini or hongni if the quality is there. I wouldn't put dancong in zini, but I've been using hongni for dancong recently. Hongni for younger pu erh too, if it is at an intermediate stage or dry storage. Some who know much more than I do tend to use their Yixings this way!

Didn't you say while in Taiwan a shop owner was brewing gaoshan in a small zini pot with surprisingly good results?

Actually, after I posted that I wondered if it might have been red clay with a lot of patina!

Interesting that you have had such good results with zini. I only have one finer zini pot and it is indeed very different from my locally purchased, sandy pin zini pots. It works well with yancha, but my high roast oolong pot kills all lighter roasted yancha aroma. Now I want more zini, too!

IMO, in a high quality pot, be it zhuni, zini, hongni, the skill of the brewer is the deciding factor.

I'd say brewer skill is more important than clay type!

[steanze]

Yancha, I have both zini and 90's modern zhuni pots that I use depending on my mood, and the zini performs just as well as the red clay. I have had amazing green tea brewed in a zini pot, just as drax mentioned. So I just don't think it can be generalized too much, clay type to tea type. It depends on the clay quality, the skill with which the clay was processed and prepared, the firing of the pot, and personal preference

I think personal preferences play an important role. I don't really like yancha in zini pots as much, whether they are modern zini, cultural revolution qing shui ni, or late Qing zini. For my taste usually red clays outperform all of these zini pots, and it is true across Qing zhuni, 60s hong ni, 70s hongni, as well as good quality modern zhuni. I only put in zini/qingshuini pots daily drinking yancha that is a bit coarse and needs some rounding, but not the better stuff. This does not mean it is the "right" way to do it! But for my preferences there is a very clear relationship between clay type and tea type even for clays varying in quality (within the good range), period, and firing level as well as firing technique...

This also does not mean at all that hongni is better all around, for aged pu-erh I usually prefer zini for example.

[jayinhk]

I wonder what kyarazen would say. I know he considers red clay superior too.