Official/Different Yixing Show Off Topic!

[chrl42]

its not difficult to become an authority seller if one is a pioneer usually.. but how one covers up the stories for so long is a matter of experience etc

I don't agree. You can't become authority after selling fake goods, like how many so-called authorities of Puerh came out in 90s and vanished like a wind...authority seller is not the one who makes money, but who lasts long.

yixing can be approached from many directions, but as a tea drinker, the effect of the pot on the brew is more important than the aesthetic... whilst on the other hand for the art appreciators, the aesthetic is more important than functionality

2 dollars Gaiwan can be in one's collection as well.

the only thing i can add an input on, is that technology is now ready to allow the replication of any purple clay material if anyone is seriously into it, replication of the aesthetic is also possible either via manual handicraft of all the "dai4-gong1" experts or through modern means.

Same as kyara, technology can cover up any evidences of ancient kyara...technology can imitate Louvre paintings as well, what is your point?

i'm ok with appreciating ancient stuff or early generation stuff as an form of art, but to use it into tea application, particularly stuff that is from late qing and before has its risks. Xu xiu tang commented in a book he wrote that heavy metals, particularly lead was key in getting the beautiful colors in glazes of ceramics etc, but the actual toxicity was only realized probably half a century ago which led to its disuse. similarly the lovely colored cinnabar, "zhu-sha"/mercury sulfide that was commonly used in tibetan incense, medicine, chinese medicine, was thought to be really therapeutic, precious etc and was added into very many things. tibetan paintings used lovely shades of red, ochre which were arsenic oxides in different oxidation states..

are you saying we should stop using antique Yixings because they contain LEAD?


look...I am getting tired....just choose teaware what you like..(not that I incidentally woke up in the middle of night for this)

[kyarazen]

Same as kyara, technology can cover up any evidences of ancient kyara...technology can imitate Louvre paintings as well, what is your point?

technology cannot replicate the composition of kyara and agarwood at the moment (maybe in future?), even the synthetic blends of givaudan are falling short, although for oils it is possible to blend something that smell ok and with strong hints. in the 90s, the japanese, under sponsorship from a company in osaka, had attempted to chemically profile and synthesize certain compounds of kyara, to realize that there are too many to synthesize, and some compounds need very many steps, and many other substances that have not been identified yet.

clay is different. it is just a mixture of different chemical oxides and compounds that can be easily purchased from chemical companies, minimal synthesis steps required.

the market now is simply using non-kyara materials and calling them exotic kyara and kynam names of course in the early days i was against it, i told people whom were collectors, why waste like a couple hundred dollars (up to thousands now) or more per gram for something that initially costs a few dollars or less?

but eventually recently i decided that there's no need to correct people anymore.. let the traders make the money, let the businessmen thrive, everyone needs to make their "living". i will only consider stepping in/ and interfering if someone consumes something that is artificial and potentially toxic when it comes to agarwood..

if they choose to accessorize themselves with all sorts of strange agarwood paraphernalia which doesnt directly harm their health, only their wallets, so be it, its the consumer's choice

are you saying we should stop using antique Yixings because they contain LEAD?

not confined to yixing, but all antique foodware and tea ware should be tested if one wishes to use them for long term. the use of certain heavy metals was rather liberal in the olden days, and perhaps lead based glazes were predominantly phased out maybe towards the 50s. at least in the states, the FDA does advice, and may regulate mass imported ceramics etc.

in my learning and exploration in the subject of fragrant woods, i have personally inhaled more toxic substances than i would have imagined. but if it affects me as a single person, thats ok. the same for antique tea wares, if its not so good, and i choose to use it myself, that is fine too (since you said one should choose to use the tea wares they like/prefer). but when others are involved, and they are un-informed, it could be socially irresponsible to serve them a cup or food on a plate that may have contained lead glaze or other heavy metals.

[TIM]

Same as kyara, technology can cover up any evidences of ancient kyara...technology can imitate Louvre paintings as well, what is your point?

technology cannot replicate the composition of kyara and agarwood at the moment (maybe in future?), even the synthetic blends of givaudan are falling short, although for oils it is possible to blend something that smell ok and with strong hints. in the 90s, the japanese, under sponsorship from a company in osaka, had attempted to chemically profile and synthesize certain compounds of kyara, to realize that there are too many to synthesize, and some compounds need very many steps, and many other substances that have not been identified yet.

clay is different. it is just a mixture of different chemical oxides and compounds that can be easily purchased from chemical companies, minimal synthesis steps required.

the market now is simply using non-kyara materials and calling them exotic kyara and kynam names of course in the early days i was against it, i told people whom were collectors, why waste like a couple hundred dollars (up to thousands now) or more per gram for something that initially costs a few dollars or less?

but eventually recently i decided that there's no need to correct people anymore.. let the traders make the money, let the businessmen thrive, everyone needs to make their "living". i will only consider stepping in/ and interfering if someone consumes something that is artificial and potentially toxic when it comes to agarwood..

if they choose to accessorize themselves with all sorts of strange agarwood paraphernalia which doesnt directly harm their health, only their wallets, so be it, its the consumer's choice

are you saying we should stop using antique Yixings because they contain LEAD?

not confined to yixing, but all antique foodware and tea ware should be tested if one wishes to use them for long term. the use of certain heavy metals was rather liberal in the olden days, and perhaps lead based glazes were predominantly phased out maybe towards the 50s. at least in the states, the FDA does advice, and may regulate mass imported ceramics etc.

in my learning and exploration in the subject of fragrant woods, i have personally inhaled more toxic substances than i would have imagined. but if it affects me as a single person, thats ok. the same for antique tea wares, if its not so good, and i choose to use it myself, that is fine too (since you said one should choose to use the tea wares they like/prefer). but when others are involved, and they are un-informed, it could be socially irresponsible to serve them a cup or food on a plate that may have contained lead glaze or other heavy metals.

Is there a contradiction to your statement, since you are teaching or showing people here how to fake aloewood?

http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 45#p255489

[TIM]

... do you have any records of ming/qing dynasty fake agarwood/kyara? agarwood faking is only a matter of recent decades (based on research with several multi-generation agarwood traders), unless there's a good amount of dishonesty going on in hongkong which predates this.

i've also asked for fun, and gotten my friends to ask their root gurus about agarwood usage and types in the tibetan tradition

Kyarazen - Here is a sample of a Qing dynasty fake agarwood bead.

[chrl42]

How naive you think they can fake clays easily....sounds like you haven't used high-quality clays at all. I mean that statements just make me stunned. High-quality Ben Shan Lv Ni is sold 1000(rmb)/500g...wow soon the clay fakers will be millionaires (reminds me of someone who said clay differentiates by any layer and place it is mined, so naming and sorting clay doesn't have meaning..because clay composition is basically the mixture of silicas..years back. And of course he was not yixing collectors)

About leads, I also heard that, not that I haven't heard. In your logics, any Yixing clay that is hand-produced contains lead..like the way they did in Ming-Qing area. Many of grand masters make that way still. I should send that request to antique collectors of Taiwan and HK, and folks from Ming/Qing dynasty, not me. That what they've been using is not treasury teawares...but lead container

it's like you are under-rating any collectors of Yixing teapot or yixing itself. but man, you are not the only chemist here. There are numerous studies done on Yixings, by experts, by researches and universities. I rarely bother to read them though..high quality goods are running out, before critically thinking about my health...life's short.


looks like you have a deep knowledge about Chinese antiques...but so far I can't find much relations to yixings...sorry I don't mean to be that...sorry if any of my comments were being offensive..I aplogize.

[chrl42]

BTW, you do know Yixing clay is basically stone, ore..not clay.

In your logics those Chinese famous stones can be faked as well (don't have to tell which one and price)..

what's next...diamond or ruby? Yixing clay is being faked already of course...numerous times...but buddy...don't get started there.

[Tead Off]

BTW, you do know Yixing clay is basically stone, ore..not clay.

In your logics those Chinese famous stones can be faked as well (don't have to tell which one and price)..

what's next...diamond or ruby? Yixing clay is being faked already of course...numerous times...but buddy...don't get started there.

Gemstones are already being faked, and faked extremely well. They can fool all but the very trained eye.

So far, I'm not sure if I have come across any 'fake' antique Yixing. I think it would be extremely difficult to fake the 'look' of Qing or Ming teapots. You can copy the style, the shape, etc., but the look of the actual clay, patina, etc., is very hard to do. Not saying it is impossible as that would be naive statement. The Chinese are masters at copying and with the addition of technology, the sky is the limit.

For me, there comes a point when the above converges in a way where it is very difficult to separate the old from not old and common to be fooled. That is the time to walk away. I will not buy many things that I used to buy years ago in my field of antiquities.

[kyarazen]

Is there a contradiction to your statement, since you are teaching or showing people here how to fake aloewood?

http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 45#p255489

there's no contradiction, its just to warn the english speaking community here how complex agarwood, particularly beads can be, although there was an additional subtle sarcasm hint in my message that people dont seem to get. i've openly declared it as a fake bead, not like i'm here to tell people that it is real when it isnt.

I have not exactly explained the process of doing it, not published it openly. this is by far one of the simplest ways, least toxic since it uses authentic agarwood resin, and there are many tens of other methods out there using resins and plastics that one wouldnt want to imagine.

[kyarazen]

well, modern purple clay from huanglong shan, mine 4 compositional signature - sio2 58.4%, al2o3 20.1%, TiO2 1.08%, total fe2o3 8.38%, k2O 3.38%, CaO 0.25%, MgO 0.57%, MnO 0.01% etc.

northern song dynasty purple clay fragment mined in 1976 - sio2 62.5%, al2o3 25.91%, TiO2 1.32%, FeO 1.4%, total fe2o3 7.75%, k2O 1.36%, CaO 0.43%, MgO 0.36%, MnO 0.1% etc, etc

early qing dynasty purple clay analysis - sio2 64.62%, al2o3 20.69%, TiO2 1.28%, etc etc..

late qing dynasty purple clay analysis - SiO2 70.55%, Al203 17.67%, TiO2 1.35% etc etc

benshan lu ni from the actual mines will have an fe203 percentage of down to 1% or so.

i've not included the exact full figures of the detail analyses of various era and maker/mine source's purple clay, but anyone with the full detail set, with vested interest, can tweak the chemistry of how they would want to blend the clay or adjust the percentages of compounds to simulate that of a certain era, together with the right particle/grain size. with the right firing temperatures, its not incredibly hard to get a decent reproduction. its now possible to order replica lids for antique pots if you know the right people in taiwan.



i think you've mis-interpreted my posting, i apologize for the lack of clarity in my writing. my main aim is to inform people to consider some care when using old and antique ceramic wares, be it yixing or not. there's no statement from me that implies that hand made yixing contains lead, but there is a potential that old yixing before the 50s that may have decorated exteriors (hopefully not interiors?), be it pots or cups, and more commonly old porcelain plates, cups, saucers, bowls, with glazes that can contain heavy metals. but if you are absolutely sure and aware of the safety of an antique object, by all means, enjoy the usage of it, this is the greatest utility in tea ware appreciation

i wont want to claim to have deep knowledge of anything at all, but i approach many hobbies by studying how people forge, so as to avoid the potholes myself. you're absolutely right about me not being the only "chemist" around, i'm not exactly a chemist but currently i'm working more in the field of materials than anything else. and if i can think of it, i'm sure the thousands and millions of experts and phds in mainland china can think of it and take it to an even better level just to make money.

dont get me wrong again, i'm not against replicas of any sort, as long as they do not have any possible detrimental health effects to the end user.

How naive you think they can fake clays easily....sounds like you haven't used high-quality clays at all. I mean that statements just make me stunned. High-quality Ben Shan Lv Ni is sold 1000(rmb)/500g...wow soon the clay fakers will be millionaires (reminds me of someone who said clay differentiates by any layer and place it is mined, so naming and sorting clay doesn't have meaning..because clay composition is basically the mixture of silicas..years back. And of course he was not yixing collectors)

About leads, I also heard that, not that I haven't heard. In your logics, any Yixing clay that is hand-produced contains lead..like the way they did in Ming-Qing area. Many of grand masters make that way still. I should send that request to antique collectors of Taiwan and HK, and folks from Ming/Qing dynasty, not me. That what they've been using is not treasury teawares...but lead container

it's like you are under-rating any collectors of Yixing teapot or yixing itself. but man, you are not the only chemist here. There are numerous studies done on Yixings, by experts, by researches and universities. I rarely bother to read them though..high quality goods are running out, before critically thinking about my health...life's short.


looks like you have a deep knowledge about Chinese antiques...but so far I can't find much relations to yixings...sorry I don't mean to be that...sorry if any of my comments were being offensive..I aplogize.

[kyarazen]

the homologue of yixing collection in thailand is the collecting of buddhist paraphernalia, or like i would say disdainfully.. little clay tablets of images etc. i've ceased collecting thai buddhist paraphernalia for a very long time already although the itch comes back sometimes..

if you head to thaprachan, it can be possible to buy somdej wat rakangs by somdej toh by the kilograms! comes in a bucket soaked in a certain mixture to give the aged patina. you can buy phra-ayuthaya style buddhas in all sorts of sizes, some even with nicely made patinas. for thai amulets it has already reached the point where the fake and the real cannot be easily distinguished. there's now laser scanning and mold creation technologies, all the markings that the magazines and books talk about are now faithfully introduced in all the replica amulets. every year there are also countless competitions across thailand where phraks are verified, and given a certificate if they win etc. soon after it was possible to purchase professionally made certificates with the right "signatures" and water marks.

i'm just drawing a parallel to yixing wares. if the thais can do excellent forges of clay tablets, the chinese can be very advanced with their antiques. whether the point of forging antique yixing or antique porcelain has reached the point where the real/fake cannot be easily distinguished... its perhaps time for the hobbyists to train themselves, and to realize in time to come

Gemstones are already being faked, and faked extremely well. They can fool all but the very trained eye.

So far, I'm not sure if I have come across any 'fake' antique Yixing. I think it would be extremely difficult to fake the 'look' of Qing or Ming teapots. You can copy the style, the shape, etc., but the look of the actual clay, patina, etc., is very hard to do. Not saying it is impossible as that would be naive statement. The Chinese are masters at copying and with the addition of technology, the sky is the limit.

For me, there comes a point when the above converges in a way where it is very difficult to separate the old from not old and common to be fooled. That is the time to walk away. I will not buy many things that I used to buy years ago in my field of antiquities.

[kyarazen]

happy year of the horse folks

i come in peace and please dont take too much offense (if any) at my postings , sometimes i like to write posts to give readers some food for thought.

fake buddhist amulets, rubies, gems, wont kill anyone. but anything you consume can harm. the chinese saying goes - 病从口入 (illness enters through the mouth). tea with pesticides is evil, tea ware that leaches toxins are similarly evil. once one is clear enough to steer away from all these, by all means enjoy the hobby to the fullest.

cheers!

[William]

Guys, this thread is becoming more and more interesting for me, thanks mainly to the various contributions of Tim, kyarazen, chrl42 and many many others TC members.
I just want to remind that the world is full of thinking heads, all different, each has its own experience, so if you guys could share all this, trying to understand the positions of all the other people, I'd be grateful.
This is one of those moments when I reflect on what I read and I try to draw from it any useful lesson, I hope that you will understand the contents of this post, written from a person that is not much accustomed with English ( ). Thank you.

Have a nice day my friends.

[chrl42]

well, modern purple clay from huanglong shan, mine 4 compositional signature - sio2 58.4%, al2o3 20.1%, TiO2 1.08%, total fe2o3 8.38%, k2O 3.38%, CaO 0.25%, MgO 0.57%, MnO 0.01% etc.

northern song dynasty purple clay fragment mined in 1976 - sio2 62.5%, al2o3 25.91%, TiO2 1.32%, FeO 1.4%, total fe2o3 7.75%, k2O 1.36%, CaO 0.43%, MgO 0.36%, MnO 0.1% etc, etc

early qing dynasty purple clay analysis - sio2 64.62%, al2o3 20.69%, TiO2 1.28%, etc etc..

late qing dynasty purple clay analysis - SiO2 70.55%, Al203 17.67%, TiO2 1.35% etc etc

benshan lu ni from the actual mines will have an fe203 percentage of down to 1% or so.

i've not included the exact full figures of the detail analyses of various era and maker/mine source's purple clay, but anyone with the full detail set, with vested interest, can tweak the chemistry of how they would want to blend the clay or adjust the percentages of compounds to simulate that of a certain era, together with the right particle/grain size. with the right firing temperatures, its not incredibly hard to get a decent reproduction. its now possible to order replica lids for antique pots if you know the right people in taiwan.

i think you've mis-interpreted my posting, i apologize for the lack of clarity in my writing. my main aim is to inform people to consider some care when using old and antique ceramic wares, be it yixing or not. there's no statement from me that implies that hand made yixing contains lead, but there is a potential that old yixing before the 50s that may have decorated exteriors (hopefully not interiors?), be it pots or cups, and more commonly old porcelain plates, cups, saucers, bowls, with glazes that can contain heavy metals. but if you are absolutely sure and aware of the safety of an antique object, by all means, enjoy the usage of it, this is the greatest utility in tea ware appreciation

i wont want to claim to have deep knowledge of anything at all, but i approach many hobbies by studying how people forge, so as to avoid the potholes myself. you're absolutely right about me not being the only "chemist" around, i'm not exactly a chemist but currently i'm working more in the field of materials than anything else. and if i can think of it, i'm sure the thousands and millions of experts and phds in mainland china can think of it and take it to an even better level just to make money.

dont get me wrong again, i'm not against replicas of any sort, as long as they do not have any possible detrimental health effects to the end user.

The exact data is found in Han Qi-lou's book. But, do you think that means anything? there are hundreds of yixing clays out there, each has a different composition data. Modern clays come with clay composition datas, and advertise using them, but you won't see them from any pots over 1000rmb. Those datas are only for people who are as gullible as a adolescent soul.

If you think yixing clay or other artistic materials can be faked as good as vitamin suppliers, it's your HUGE misunderstanding. Collectors, in my opinion, is the one who understands 'quality'. If new technology is manufactering yixing clay is capable of satisfying collectors of power, it's revolutionary as a shale gas. And the market will respond before teachat.com.

I've been a massive reply poster..but I cannot do that now (filled with tasks)..so apologies if any of my comments being unedited or thoughtless. Apologies, I own. Happy horse year.

[kyarazen]

actually its not from han qi lou's book. the origin was from a couple of chinese academic papers from the archaelogical departments which is now not only published in your said book, and many others. to add to the library, there are very many more compositional analyses done on yixing materials that are tabulated by the taiwanese.. for whatever its up to people to imagine

there can be hundreds of yixing clays out there given the complex blending in the 80s and the material adulteration etc, but if you want to replicate a certain pot of a certain era, all you need to do is to bring it and sent it for analyses. raman spec is by far the best i've used in compositional analysis.

whilst the several archaelogical departments are debating about 时大彬 pots, amongst the thirteen existing copies, there are some with similar chemical compositions, there are some that are off the tangent, if one has the reference composition finger print of common clays of an era, the methods can be used to exclude the later "clones" from the original ones. with sufficient data and references, it becomes like a DNA database, or like a FTIR encyclopedia to refer to. gullible could be those that choose to ignore scientific technologies

well, perhaps being chinese and working closely with the chinese, I should not undermine the works of the chinese and their creativity anymore

lets end the debate on this topic here whilst we go in different directions with our yixing usage/collection.

enjoy the hobby and do collect more collectors with financial powers are often the most important in supporting the industries and the tea-economy.

The exact data is found in Han Qi-lou's book. But, do you think that means anything? there are hundreds of yixing clays out there, each has a different composition data. Modern clays come with clay composition datas, and advertise using them, but you won't see them from any pots over 1000rmb. Those datas are only for people who are as gullible as a adolescent soul.

If you think yixing clay or other artistic materials can be faked as good as vitamin suppliers, it's your HUGE misunderstanding. Collectors, in my opinion, is the one who understands 'quality'. If new technology is manufactering yixing clay is capable of satisfying collectors of power, it's revolutionary as a shale gas. And the market will respond before teachat.com.

I've been a massive reply poster..but I cannot do that now (filled with tasks)..so apologies if any of my comments being unedited or thoughtless. Apologies, I own. Happy horse year.

[chrl42]

there can be hundreds of yixing clays out there given the complex blending in the 80s and the material adulteration etc, but if you want to replicate a certain pot of a certain era, all you need to do is to bring it and sent it for analyses. raman spec is by far the best i've used in compositional analysis.

whilst the several archaelogical departments are debating about 时大彬 pots, amongst the thirteen existing copies, there are some with similar chemical compositions, there are some that are off the tangent, if one has the reference composition finger print of common clays of an era, the methods can be used to exclude the later "clones" from the original ones. with sufficient data and references, it becomes like a DNA database, or like a FTIR encyclopedia to refer to. gullible could be those that choose to ignore scientific technologies

Why not using a raman spec and replicating the 80s pots and started selling on Taobao? you will become a millionaire, early 80's pots are crazied with collectors. But I wonder why I can't see them on Taobao or Maliandao? Penalizing a seller for selling fake goods is pretty weak in China

You said good about Shi Da-bin. Authentication of early Ming-jia is among the hardest project, because fake goods came out at the very living times. There are numerous Shao Da-heng's imitations during Jia-qing period. The clay composition and others all similar, the final decision is up to artistic level, not academic research, my friend.