These entry level Yixing pots look good to me!

[stevorama]

Lastly, look at its craftsmanship. A teapot of good craftsmanship is usually of good material. Why, because the cost of zisha is very little in the total cost of a teapot. For instance, a kilo of authentic dicaoqing(with water) of passable quality is about 30 yuan in Yixing, less than 5 dollars. It can produce two 200 cc teapots. There are fake or doctored zisha material, but they are not the mainstream.
The zisha material before communist China or rather before the 1980's is generally of better quality in terms of less fakes. Except that, there is no reason to believe they perform better than new zisha teapots do.
New zisha teapots made from very old and aged material is very expensive. Because they are usually made by senior craftsman with very good craftsmanship. So take care not to be conned by so called old teapots at low prices.
Teapots made from aged material performs better than those from less aged material. They make better tea and can be seasoned more easily.

Interesting!! So it sounds like there is no shortage of quality modern clay and higher quality craftsmanship usually means higher quality clay. Aged clay is the best quality and is used by the most experienced craftsmen.

Is clay always being aged so that now and in the future there is a steady supply of aged clay? How many years does it take to call a clay "aged?"

[stevorama]

i'm happy to hear that the material can be had for cheap, is it possible to help me procure some authentic dicaoqing?

i would like a couple of kilograms without water (with water is also ok!) for some potting experiments.. i have an address in sichuan which you can kuai-di to.. or alternatively i do have friends in tieba that can help me forward the package~ i can arrange payment to you easily as well

Are you thinking of making a teapot? That sounds like a fun project. I was thinking of taking a ceramics class to make teacups, pitchers, containers, etc. We'll see if I can find time for that!

[steanze]

Interesting!! So it sounds like there is no shortage of quality modern clay and higher quality craftsmanship usually means higher quality clay. Aged clay is the best quality and is used by the most experienced craftsmen.

Is clay always being aged so that now and in the future there is a steady supply of aged clay? How many years does it take to call a clay "aged?"

Unfortunately I would not be so optimistic The demand for teapots has increased enormously in the past couple of decades, while the amount of good quality clay has not increased. Furthermore, top-quality clay was used for common-use teapots during the Factory 1 period, but nowadays top-quality clay is usually reserved for artistic works, which are often of larger size and therefore hard to use for gongfu tea. These pots often cost more than $1000, and even upwards of $10000. Dozens if not hundreds or thousands of pots are purchased at these prices by increasingly wealthy Chinese customers who are willing to spend significant sums on Yixing teapots and sometimes see them as a status symbol (it's kind of like having a fancy car). As a consequence, not much top-quality clay is left for cheap pots. There are some makers that specialize on clay quality and pick good materials under $600, but they aren't many. These are some of the reasons why you see fake Factory 1 teapots on sale on Taobao for over $600, and why someone bothered to produce them in the first place.
The good thing is that even teapots that aren't made with top-quality clay can brew perfectly fine tea unless you are looking for the very subtle details and for the aesthetic.

[stevorama]

Unfortunately I would not be so optimistic The demand for teapots has increased enormously in the past couple of decades, while the amount of good quality clay has not increased. Furthermore, top-quality clay was used for common-use teapots during the Factory 1 period, but nowadays top-quality clay is usually reserved for artistic works, which are often of larger size and therefore hard to use for gongfu tea. These pots often cost more than $1000, and even upwards of $10000. Dozens if not hundreds or thousands of pots are purchased at these prices by increasingly wealthy Chinese customers who are willing to spend significant sums on Yixing teapots and sometimes see them as a status symbol (it's kind of like having a fancy car). As a consequence, not much top-quality clay is left for cheap pots. There are some makers that specialize on clay quality and pick good materials under $600, but they aren't many. These are some of the reasons why you see fake Factory 1 teapots on sale on Taobao for over $600, and why someone bothered to produce them in the first place.
The good thing is that even teapots that aren't made with top-quality clay can brew perfectly fine tea unless you are looking for the very subtle details and for the aesthetic.

Good points. I think fundamentally I'm trying to understand the basic market forces at work. As well as understanding the basics of modern yi xing production. I see a fair amount of uncertainty and scarcity in my small view (western and mostly online) of the market so I want to learn more. Also, like you suggested, there's practical considerations, collecting considerations, and then the intersection of those!

[stevorama]

Unfortunately I would not be so optimistic The demand for teapots has increased enormously in the past couple of decades, while the amount of good quality clay has not increased. Furthermore, top-quality clay was used for common-use teapots during the Factory 1 period, but nowadays top-quality clay is usually reserved for artistic works, which are often of larger size and therefore hard to use for gongfu tea. These pots often cost more than $1000, and even upwards of $10000. Dozens if not hundreds or thousands of pots are purchased at these prices by increasingly wealthy Chinese customers who are willing to spend significant sums on Yixing teapots and sometimes see them as a status symbol (it's kind of like having a fancy car). As a consequence, not much top-quality clay is left for cheap pots. There are some makers that specialize on clay quality and pick good materials under $600, but they aren't many. These are some of the reasons why you see fake Factory 1 teapots on sale on Taobao for over $600, and why someone bothered to produce them in the first place. The good thing is that even teapots that aren't made with top-quality clay can brew perfectly fine tea unless you are looking for the very subtle details and for the aesthetic.

To add...I'm also trying to understand that concept of "top-quality clay." In other words how is it defined. Is it defined by function, aesthetics, scarcity, marketing, etc.

[lvwen]

Lastly, look at its craftsmanship. A teapot of good craftsmanship is usually of good material. Why, because the cost of zisha is very little in the total cost of a teapot. For instance, a kilo of authentic dicaoqing(with water) of passable quality is about 30 yuan in Yixing, less than 5 dollars. It can produce two 200 cc teapots. There are fake or doctored zisha material, but they are not the mainstream.
The zisha material before communist China or rather before the 1980's is generally of better quality in terms of less fakes. Except that, there is no reason to believe they perform better than new zisha teapots do.
New zisha teapots made from very old and aged material is very expensive. Because they are usually made by senior craftsman with very good craftsmanship. So take care not to be conned by so called old teapots at low prices.
Teapots made from aged material performs better than those from less aged material. They make better tea and can be seasoned more easily.

Interesting!! So it sounds like there is no shortage of quality modern clay and higher quality craftsmanship usually means higher quality clay. Aged clay is the best quality and is used by the most experienced craftsmen.

Is clay always being aged so that now and in the future there is a steady supply of aged clay? How many years does it take to call a clay "aged?"

Yes, at least in the foreseeable future, there will be no short of a steady supply of good and aged clay. There is no uniform standard for aged zisha material. For some makers, half a year is older and more aged than a month. For most makers, aged zisha means 5 years.

[lvwen]

Unfortunately I would not be so optimistic The demand for teapots has increased enormously in the past couple of decades, while the amount of good quality clay has not increased. Furthermore, top-quality clay was used for common-use teapots during the Factory 1 period, but nowadays top-quality clay is usually reserved for artistic works, which are often of larger size and therefore hard to use for gongfu tea. These pots often cost more than $1000, and even upwards of $10000. Dozens if not hundreds or thousands of pots are purchased at these prices by increasingly wealthy Chinese customers who are willing to spend significant sums on Yixing teapots and sometimes see them as a status symbol (it's kind of like having a fancy car). As a consequence, not much top-quality clay is left for cheap pots. There are some makers that specialize on clay quality and pick good materials under $600, but they aren't many. These are some of the reasons why you see fake Factory 1 teapots on sale on Taobao for over $600, and why someone bothered to produce them in the first place. The good thing is that even teapots that aren't made with top-quality clay can brew perfectly fine tea unless you are looking for the very subtle details and for the aesthetic.

Please don't be. I will cheer you up with some statistics. It is said Yixing zisha material formed about 200-400 million years ago of Lacustrine sedimentary and marine sedimentary deposits . Up to now, there are 102 mines of various zisha material in the vicinity of Yixing. Proven reserve of zisha material is about 73 million tons, available reserve is about 65 million tons. From Ming Dynasty(1368-1644) until now, only a fraction of zisha material has been used.
Let us do some calculation. We presume a kilo of zisha material can produce 2 200 cc zisha teapots( minus losses during mining and grinding), the proven reserve can make 146 billion 200 cc teapots from now on.

[lvwen]

i'm happy to hear that the material can be had for cheap, is it possible to help me procure some authentic dicaoqing?

i would like a couple of kilograms without water (with water is also ok!) for some potting experiments.. i have an address in sichuan which you can kuai-di to.. or alternatively i do have friends in tieba that can help me forward the package~ i can arrange payment to you easily as well

Not a problem. There are different grades. If you want to just experience, I suggest you buy the cheapest material. There is material used by apprentices which is very cheap. But the cost for international shipping would be staggering. The problem is, where do you fire it.

[lvwen]

To add...I'm also trying to understand that concept of "top-quality clay." In other words how is it defined. Is it defined by function, aesthetics, scarcity, marketing, etc.[/quote][quote][/quote]
Definitely by function. Good clay can make better tea and can be seasoned more easily and quickly. In practice, good craftsman use good clay. Just as top racing drivers usually drive best cars. Good clay and good craftsman can sell good price . An apprentice using top quality clay, might be just a waste of resources. Because the teapot may be so badly made, nobody wants it even it is of top quality.

[kyarazen]

Not a problem. There are different grades. If you want to just experience, I suggest you buy the cheapest material. There is material used by apprentices which is very cheap. But the cost for international shipping would be staggering. The problem is, where do you fire it.

no problems.. i have contacts on kiln access here. there are a couple of tiny
"dragon kilns" here but they are too small and too low temperature.

can you quote me on the good to best aged dicaoqing? i can send you payment via paypal or even get my friend in china to send payment over. shipping either to singapore or to my sichuan address also can~

[steanze]

Please don't be. I will cheer you up with some statistics. It is said Yixing zisha material formed about 200-400 million years ago of Lacustrine sedimentary and marine sedimentary deposits . Up to now, there are 102 mines of various zisha material in the vicinity of Yixing. Proven reserve of zisha material is about 73 million tons, available reserve is about 65 million tons. From Ming Dynasty(1368-1644) until now, only a fraction of zisha material has been used.
Let us do some calculation. We presume a kilo of zisha material can produce 2 200 cc zisha teapots( minus losses during mining and grinding), the proven reserve can make 146 billion 200 cc teapots from now on.

Thanks for the statistics and for teaching us more about Yixing! One thing I am curious about is how much of that clay is so-so zini, and how much of it is better clay.

If there is so much excellent clay that is easily available, I am trying to understand why I can't easily find on the market pots made of hongni with the quality of 1960s-70s Factory 1 hongni (smooth, fine grained texture, picks up patina quickly, the tea tastes crisp) for a cheap price. It is also a bit strange that Factory 1 would switch to lower quality hongni after the 1980s, if there was still so much of the better hongni left... And why there isn't more 茄子泥 or Factory 1 benshanlvni? I think that people would buy them if they were produced... Maybe I did not look in the right places. If you could find pots with clay like 60s-70s F1 hongni or 茄子泥 and sell them for a good price (say under $200) I would most likely get some, and you would probably make many of us here happy

Now F1 pots from the 60s-70s are expensive, and I think the pots on your website are very reasonably priced I think the pots you offer are better than most other vendors available to the western market so do not take this as a criticism I can find several of them on taobao (I posted some links earlier in this thread) and your price is very reasonable given that it's easier to buy on Ebay for western buyers - otherwise we'd have to pay for taobao agent fees and higher shipping costs. I myself have a couple of 李小璐 pots that I got a few years ago, when they costed about 180 yuan, and they are quite nice, but they are not close to 60s-70s F1 hongni. There are indeed some modern pots with pretty good clay (I personally like 蒋翔宇 and 许跃峰), but usually they are not very cheap, and they still are quite different from the earlier clays...

[steanze]

Definitely by function. Good clay can make better tea and can be seasoned more easily and quickly. In practice, good craftsman use good clay. Just as top racing drivers usually drive best cars. Good clay and good craftsman can sell good price . An apprentice using top quality clay, might be just a waste of resources. Because the teapot may be so badly made, nobody wants it even it is of top quality.

+1
Good clay is defined by both use and aesthetic aspects in my view. It is clay that makes good tea when appropriately paired, it is aesthetically beautiful, with a good texture and color, and it picks up a good patina quickly. A few examples: Qing dynasty or 徐金根's (xu jingen) zhuni; qiezini (茄子泥); 1960s-1970s Factory 1 hongni (especially the fine clay/fen tai types), ...
I would still prefer a badly made teapot with good quality clay, than a very well made teapot with poor clay as long as the pour is fast. But this is my personal preference.

[tingjunkie]

We all appreciate your input and you have made modern Yixing pots accessible to many at a fair price, and the good people here at TeaChat have sent a lot of customers your way!

...and I didn't even ask for a finder's fee.

Good to have you here on TeaChat, Ivwen!

[stevorama]

This is a great conversation. Good information all around. Thank you.

We presume a kilo of zisha material can produce 2 200 cc zisha teapots( minus losses during mining and grinding), the proven reserve can make 146 billion 200 cc teapots from now on.

That's a lot of teapots!!!

[LouPepe]

Maybe it would be helpful if some of us shared our own yixing purchasing experiences, particularly of modern pots. We all know older pots have higher ratio of good clay across the board than modern pots. But since old pots now are as expensive if not more so than similar design (traditional, simple) pots of nowadays, it makes sense to have a good scope of price/quality scales for modern pots. Particularly what kind of money can buy you a similar design/craftmanship pot with similar clay quality to that of say a mid to late era factory 1 pot.

This is MY experience in modern day pots and prices of traditional designs. Others experiences may be different, and so it would be nice to hear from others so we can find common themes.I will compare 3 duanni and 3 zini pots of modern day. I won't get into zhuni/hongni because that seems to be a bit more complicated in terms of what people's opinions are on what constitutes a high quality red clay. Lots of these pots are so high-fired, low porosity that I can't seem to make up my mind on how they are really superior to duanni/zini. Sure, they may be more successful across a larger selection of teas, but brewing with clay after all is to have clay influence on the tea. I'll just leave it at that with red clays.

First off, I'll compare 3 zini pots which many others may be familiar with. EoT's modern pots from Master Zhou's studio. I purchased and use regularly 1 pot of each grade of the clay that was available. This is easy for me because the clays come from the same studio so it is obvious that these clays are in fact considered low/mid/high grade. The prices (which many are familiar with) go like this low~$110, mid~$240, high~$650. The craftmanship is pretty great across the board but it is noticeable to me with a little experience that more attention to detail was paid to the high grade. Clay quality- low is authentic, pretty good zini almost muddier for lack of better term. Mid is grainier, better quality particles with good and varied mineral makeup. High is more pure, uniform, and certainly more aged/"older" clay. They ALL brew very good for what I use them for, but there is a very definite increase in quality of tea at each level. So there it goes, lower grade more average clay but still authentic and good around $100. Better quality and possibly older clays around 200-300. Very good, aged, pure clay $400-$500 and above.

Next up, duanni clays. These are from different artists and made in different times but still considered modern pots. First is $140 huangjin duanni pot, second is WenGeLvNi $210 pot, third is $450 qingduan pot. The cheaper pot is very smooth, fine grain, "powdery" clay and is just okay. Looks colored honestly, a little copper oxide perhaps. Brews unimpressive tea compared to most other pots I own. The mid-price wengelvni pot is grainier, richer, and a bit denser. This one also has some type of oxide to give that teal-ish, blue color. This pot brews good tea when paired right. A good investment considering the craftmanship and looks of the pot. And lastly the more expensive qingduan- this pot is very smooth but with a good particle feel to it, pure color, soft but heavy, nice mineral speckles showing through. Again, it brews better tea than the other two. For a duanni pot it really amazes me how round it leaves tea, more like zini. A duanni that is a true protector of high notes if there was one. Again, for the extra money spent I find it worthwhile, but only because I can't find old clays with this quality clay much cheaper.

Let us know your experiences, and maybe we can gauge this modern pot/clay thing a bit better. Cheers.