Yixing lid test?

[SilentChaos]

The blue part, that's exactly what I talked about IQ140 with dirty pants, unless you think there are many more wenge teapots than modern teapots available today.

Never mind Wengge pots. The majority of pots from the 80s and early 90s, both commercial and 'artisan' ones, won't pass the lid test, drip test or whatever with flying colors.[/quote]

[gingkoseto]

Sorry Gingko, but I think your theory here is totally wrong. Lots of wenge shuipings won't pass this lid test, not well anyway. I'd take one of those over any of these new pots that pass this lid test any day.

The fact of the matter is the lid test really tests something that has NOTHING to do with how well a pot will brew tea. You never, ever need a tight lid for brewing good tea - yes, it might drip less, but that also has to do with how the spout pours, and not so much lid fit.Lid fit can be achieved with an industrial mold. It doesn't make it a good pot.

The blue part, that's exactly what I talked about IQ140 with dirty pants, unless you think there are many more wenge teapots than modern teapots available today.
The green part, my hands that use teapots don't agree with you.
I don't use any antique or collector level teapots, but mainly use high quality modern teapots with reasonable price - I believe that's the affordable range of most people and I hope they don't have the myth of getting a teapot with poor lid fit and just *wish* it's a wenge teapot.
The red part, I've seen this for quite a few times on teachat and I hope I'm not the only one feeling there is a logic problem for this argument - a stupid interviewee wearing clean pants shouldn't make you favor interviewee wearing dirty pants.

You know that poor lid fit doesn't mean dripping all over? Also, how are you using your pot such that the minute difference between a well fitting lid and a not so well fitting lid (we're not talking about totally unfit lid here - just one that won't pass the lid fit test with flying colours) is going to cause you problems with brewing? I have a hard time imagining under what circumstances you have those problems. I know you're a vendor with pots to sell, but really, we gotta look at things objectively.

As per your analogy, nor should we assume that clean pants are the only ones worth considering for the job, which is what the lid fit test is about.

I don't think you really understand the interviewee scenario I gave at the very beginning. Otherwise, you may have found that not much of what you said disagree with what I said. Oh well, maybe it's a complicated analogy and I didn't put it well enough.

One thing you and I really disagree on is whether lid-fit matters at all. Say, if there are two teapots with exactly everything else the same, and the only difference is one has poor fit of lid. Would you choose the one with poor lid-fit and leave the other one to me, since you think they are the same? When the moment comes, Should I believe most people who have said "lid-fit doesn't matter" would be so selfless and take the poor-lid one?

The orange part - that's exactly what I feel funny about. Many people who are obviously non-vendors (just my impression, not necessarily accurate) talk more vendor-like than me. They keep telling people, don't mind craftsmanship so much, buy expensive stuff, higher price means higher quality, one needs numerous yixing teapots for various types of tea... (this part is not about you but a collective impression on some frequently given opinions among some tea drinkers). Oh well, I know I talk too much... just couldn't hold it... If I were a real professional vendor, I guess I should just keep quiet and be secretly happy, without breaking people's enthusiasm for spending more money.

I'm not sure if I will be happy making money from people spending money blindly. But if being a vendor is a reason for one's opinion to be discounted here, then obviously I should work on being more quiet

[kikula]

Maybe a little OT, but I sure do wish I knew who were vendors in this forum. I spend a lot of time perusing the (invaluable) archives and know that this has been discussed but the idea of a little identifying tag never seems to have materialized? For me that's not about any issues to do with advertising and I wouldn't discount a vendor's opinions at all - more like identifying areas of expertise. Also, If I'm buying tea/wares from someone I'm also chatting with, it'd be just convenient to easily know that without having to spend time figuring it out or searching profiles, yes?

[AdamMY]

I hope I am not interjecting myself in the middle of this discussion, but while I get the Interviewee scenario, maybe dirty pants is not the right descriptor, though it is close. Maybe personality quirk is more adequate. Sometimes the people that are best for the job, certain technical jobs come to mind, have certain personality quirks that can detract from their likeability, but that does not mean they are horrible at their job. In fact sometimes certain personality quirks actually make people ideal for that job though they may not be likable.

So I think what Marshal is saying if the pot brews great tea, we can mostly forget about the quirk. While the lid test is more of just an appearance issue, and some people can come in and put on a great face passing every test a company issues wonderfully and not show any sign of a quirk, but in the end they are substandard at their job.

[Chip]

Maybe a little OT, but I sure do wish I knew who were vendors in this forum. I spend a lot of time perusing the (invaluable) archives and know that this has been discussed but the idea of a little identifying tag never seems to have materialized? For me that's not about any issues to do with advertising and I wouldn't discount a vendor's opinions at all - more like identifying areas of expertise. Also, If I'm buying tea/wares from someone I'm also chatting with, it'd be just convenient to easily know that without having to spend time figuring it out.

We are working on it. We conducted a trial with a known vendor, placed "vendor" beneath his avie.

I would like to further this practice, but for so long we did not want to know members were vendors to such a degree (TC has an allergy to spam) that I am fairly clueless except for a handful or two. But I know there are many more ...

I guess I could create an announcement topic placing it in several TC forums asking vendors to come forward. I am sure the more honest ones would come forward while the sneaky ones would remain undercover.

[JBaymore]

Also, If I'm buying tea/wares from someone I'm also chatting with, it'd be just convenient to easily know that without having to spend time figuring it out or searching profiles, yes?

For the Teaware Artisans here... just drop down to the dedicated section...... our names are there. There is also a verndors section where you could do the same.

If someone is a vendor or an artist... and thay don't identify themselves in those sections... then even the site Admin will not know.

best,

...................john

[gingkoseto]

About the vendor issue, I have the impression that at the beginning, it was against forum rule to include business name in one's ID. My ID on some other tea forums is Gingko (manager of xxx). But I don't think it's a suitable ID for teachat.

To my understanding, the artisan and merchant sections are for people who intended to sell their products on teachat, not for listing every artisan or vendor. I wouldn't mind if it lists all vendors including me, but so far selling stuff on an online forum is not a time-efficient way for me. Many times in tea and other fields, I hear people say, "I'm not making a living on selling, and I'm not a seller", while selling stuff to other people. By their definition, I'm not a seller either and I've never sold anything on teachat, as many non-sellers do. Yet I would proudly call myself a tea seller, because I'm good at giving myself credits for things, including offering great tea stuff. (This was induced by the vendor discussion and didn't mean to be advertising... please don't contact me for any business matters before my vacation ends... )

As for the discussion itself, it started as a discussion, and for discussions, I tend to see people's common points before recognizing discrepancies. But once the conversation deviates from the original topic and suddenly turned to "since you are a vendor, you are not as objective as I'm", it looks like the discussion was manipulated into a debate where someone has to win, and it sounds like there is nothing better or more powerful to say about the topic itself than pointing out vendors are biased. On this, whether or not vendors are listed in a section, wouldn't make any difference.

[Tead Off]

I believe I am the only 'labeled' vendor here. I was told months ago that administration was working on this category but it is obvious that this has been put on a back burner. I don't mind being tagged like this as I have nothing to hide from anyone but to be the only one labeled 'vendor' seems meaningless if there is not a real etiquette setup and implemented by the administration. I would ask now for this to be removed from my I.D. immediately.

[AdamMY]

Not that it belongs in this topic, but I think when you are at least a bit skeptical of every persons posts the vendor tag becomes unnecessary. While yes it can be nice to realize the person you are talking with may have an ulterior motive in regards to what they are posting. In the end if you believe the post to be factual you have something to go on. Maybe I have a bit of a higher toned BS meter than some, but I tend to smell a rat before I even consider fully what they are saying.

I am not accusing Tead Off of this, as I think he does a wonderful job providing Korean teaware to the World Wide market from talented artists that would not get that exposure otherwise. I am more referring to a number of other spam members I have seen crop up over the years that promote one site exclusively that somehow in the wide world of teachat knowledge only they have known about/ tried and claim it is amazing, yet anyone else looking at their site feels like they need some sort of immunization.

[kikula]

Also, If I'm buying tea/wares from someone I'm also chatting with, it'd be just convenient to easily know that without having to spend time figuring it out or searching profiles, yes?

For the Teaware Artisans here... just drop down to the dedicated section...... our names are there. There is also a verndors section where you could do the same.

If someone is a vendor or an artist... and thay don't identify themselves in those sections... then even the site Admin will not know.

best,

...................john

Well, since at this very moment I'm sipping tea from a great A. Bero yunomi (I have 2 great little pots from him as well), brewed in an exquisite P. Novak pot (and water cooled in a lovely Novak yuzamashi), and rejoicing that my new Greenwood wares were shipped today, and my lustful little eye on that Korean wares dropbox... I can only say that yes, being able to chat with those vendors and read reliable member reviews and view member photos is extremely effective "advertising", but of the right sort, seems to me.
Things will obviously get more complicated around sales of things like yixing pots (hooked to a market where fraud, misinformation and wildly divergent pricing is normative, and also bound up with traditions and opinions that are sometimes controversial) and that was what I was referring to.

Chip, I do see the complications. There's a little catch-22 if you lean too far in either direction. Sigh.

Adam makes a very good point, but honestly my own wish to know who's a vendor isn't so much about skepticism (Chip does a really good job of challenging likely spammers, I think) - it's more a kind of relevant community who's who thing. I think that everyone who reads a lot in this forum develops their own (I guess fallible) sense of who seems credible, experienced and honest; if a person who is otherwise compatible is also selling tea it'd just be pleasant (and useful) to know about it. For instance, I've read Adam's posts, his blog, and watched his videos. If he were selling tea or wares I'd trust him, that's my gut. If he were and I didn't know about it because of forum rules, that'd be sort of a shame. The best 'advertising' that happens in a forum emerges just from trust among persons who've had some contact there, and that's a nice thing. But I also see that it's fraught with other perils, so it might just be a sort of whimsical preference.

[chrl42]

I am not smart enough, my english isn't good enough to grasp what's going on here

Just because someone mentioned lid-fit and so on (gingko, Lu Shan Yun Wu was so great ) and because there's a thing between lid-fit vs older the better thing goin on even in China


If you talk about piano, recent pianists beat older ones in technique, asian students beat none-asians by far but teachers don't credit it..why? or why do we still dig those poorly recorded LPs and call them classic?..because what today has and old days don't have, vice versa, there's also a thing old days had, and today doesn't have (why remember Horowitz as the last romantic)

I guess it's called culture, something that certain era can only provide...like nowadays kids won't understand why Michael Jordan is the greatest (blessed I am )


Back to Yixing teapot, young masters..they can make better pots (accuracy) than older ones (even grand masters) but funnily enough, they can never 'create'. All they can do is to imitate previous shapes and be hired as 'Daigong'. (Is it an effect of the Cultural revolution? I dunno)

Some say grand master Lv Yao-chen can't make pots..but they don't know master Lv travelled all over China, deeply studied traditional Chinese arts and history (his caligraphy is 'grand master', too). Just to be inspired for Yixing teapot, in the end, he was the last one with lots of 'hits' like Rong-tian, Shen-yun, Gui-fei etc..true master of creation. (anyone can create..but once they don't imitate you it's not a creation)

Back to topic..older the better..
They also hand-ground the clays..back then, anything was done by hand. Its collectors were also special customers during those days(cult following like classical music or jazz)..so even it's not a master-kind, there's still a quality to it. So it's rather antique vs master Yixings, not antique vs modern normal Yixings.

Factory-1 pots is like early Yin-ji Puerh or Menghai. Even though they are mass-produced they had the best head-quarters of Pin-pei and authority to get the best leaves. Factory-1 pots, even though they were mass-produced, they were supervised by best potters of China, from clay, moulds (they designed them) to firing. Something brains gathered and organized, and get the best efficiency out of it was what Korean potters (or others) could never have imagined. I guess that's the power of China.

Factory-1 pots quality also differs, pre mid-80's pots were more organized and better in quality....Ive talked too much...any different idea welcomed

[MarshalN]

As for the discussion itself, it started as a discussion, and for discussions, I tend to see people's common points before recognizing discrepancies. But once the conversation deviates from the original topic and suddenly turned to "since you are a vendor, you are not as objective as I'm", it looks like the discussion was manipulated into a debate where someone has to win, and it sounds like there is nothing better or more powerful to say about the topic itself than pointing out vendors are biased. On this, whether or not vendors are listed in a section, wouldn't make any difference.

No, the objective was not to win but just to say that lid-fit has nothing to do with pot quality. You continue to imply that it does have something to do with it, when it does not, at all. This is especially the case when you claim in a rather amazing fashion that you are somehow unable to use pots that have lids that don't fit perfectly. For everyone who has a pot that has a lid that doesn't fit perfectly that they use often, it's really a pretty surprising thing to hear. Your hands must be somehow anatomically aligned in such a way as to be the perfect lid-fit tester.

One thing you and I really disagree on is whether lid-fit matters at all. Say, if there are two teapots with exactly everything else the same, and the only difference is one has poor fit of lid. Would you choose the one with poor lid-fit and leave the other one to me, since you think they are the same? When the moment comes, Should I believe most people who have said "lid-fit doesn't matter" would be so selfless and take the poor-lid one?

Sure, you'd take the one with the better fit if everything else being identical, but that's rarely the case. The usual case is you have two different pots. One is actually the superior pot, but because people (usually pot-vendors) continually stress how important the lid-fit thing is, the buyer remembers this piece of "advice" and goes for the better fit one, even though that's the industrially molded mass-market crap pot. My reason for posting in this thread at all on this idea that needs to die is precisely to provide a counter to the whole "a pot that doesn't pass the lid-fit test is a bad pot that is unusable" BS, which you unfortunately continue to espouse with your claim of how your hands can't use those pots.

[gingkoseto]

As for the discussion itself, it started as a discussion, and for discussions, I tend to see people's common points before recognizing discrepancies. But once the conversation deviates from the original topic and suddenly turned to "since you are a vendor, you are not as objective as I'm", it looks like the discussion was manipulated into a debate where someone has to win, and it sounds like there is nothing better or more powerful to say about the topic itself than pointing out vendors are biased. On this, whether or not vendors are listed in a section, wouldn't make any difference.

No, the objective was not to win but just to say that lid-fit has nothing to do with pot quality. You continue to imply that it does have something to do with it, when it does not, at all. This is especially the case when you claim in a rather amazing fashion that you are somehow unable to use pots that have lids that don't fit perfectly. For everyone who has a pot that has a lid that doesn't fit perfectly that they use often, it's really a pretty surprising thing to hear. Your hands must be somehow anatomically aligned in such a way as to be the perfect lid-fit tester.

One thing you and I really disagree on is whether lid-fit matters at all. Say, if there are two teapots with exactly everything else the same, and the only difference is one has poor fit of lid. Would you choose the one with poor lid-fit and leave the other one to me, since you think they are the same? When the moment comes, Should I believe most people who have said "lid-fit doesn't matter" would be so selfless and take the poor-lid one?

Sure, you'd take the one with the better fit if everything else being identical, but that's rarely the case. The usual case is you have two different pots. One is actually the superior pot, but because people (usually pot-vendors) continually stress how important the lid-fit thing is, the buyer remembers this piece of "advice" and goes for the better fit one, even though that's the industrially molded mass-market crap pot. My reason for posting in this thread at all on this idea that needs to die is precisely to provide a counter to the whole "a pot that doesn't pass the lid-fit test is a bad pot that is unusable" BS, which you unfortunately continue to espouse with your claim of how your hands can't use those pots.

So obviously you didn't get my interviewee scenario at all. My bad for not putting it clearly for your understanding level.

Red part - Now you've started planting things I didn't say on me. End of discussion on my side.

And I'm really not sure if you give that answer to my question just to "prove" you are right and others are wrong.

[gingkoseto]

If you talk about piano...

Back to Yixing teapot...

Thank you for giving some good points on the original topic. It's great that somebody is still focusing on tea

[gingkoseto]

After all the accusation and vendor casting, I realize that I should clarify that I have nothing to do with the vendor website mentioned in the original post. I know most of you know it but thought I would just clarify as the conversation is going to muddier side.

I participate this and previous discussions out of my own interest in tea (or I'm just stupid to think so).

For business, I buy tea from many suppliers who sell tea and who are also agriculturists, scientists, accountants, technicians, naturalists, journalists... I don't see them as merely sellers but as tea friends, and I respect them the same as respecting tea farmers, professional tea dealers and labor workers in tea. Very often, what we see on other people does not say as much about other people as reflecting our own minds.

I've sold nothing on teachat and have no intention to do so. Many seasoned teachatters (who are not vendors) did sell stuff on teachat (nothing against it... I happily bought from them too... but just to question the question of who is a seller ).