Late Qing?

[the_economist]

Hi Chrl, I would be very interested to hear your side of the argument. Why do you think it is a late Qing zhuni pot (aside from the stamp)? Maybe with a better picture of the clay we'll be able to see the typical shrinkage marks associated with zhuni?

I can see and agree with you that it doesn't look to be one of those 90s replicas.

[chrl42]

Hi Chrl, I would be very interested to hear your side of the argument. Why do you think it is a late Qing zhuni pot (aside from the stamp)? Maybe with a better picture of the clay we'll be able to see the typical shrinkage marks associated with zhuni?

I can see and agree with you that it doesn't look to be one of those 90s replicas.

It's not 'think'. It's 'know'. You don't have to think about whether they are kyusu or yixing.

First of all, there are MANY late-Qing Zhuni that are not in what M has described. It's same as saying, all of late-Qing/ROC Ju Lun Zhu has short 'teeth' of lid or all of 5~60 SPs have short 'teeth',

truth is, variation exists. God sake, they are hand-made. I have no reason to believe Master Chen is less trustworthy than M. Who already owns hundreds of antiques plus quite well-known in antique Yixing community.

In antique Yixing community, collectors have over 90% of agreement when they point late-Qing Zhuni, it's THAT easy. Just gas kilns can't make that bubble or darken spots since they were tunnel-shaped kilns of new technology. Most importantly, the clay...anyone who has used 'late-Qing' Zhuni is quite used to this batch of Zhuni.

90s used mostly Xiaomeiyao Zhuni and modern Zhaozhuang Zhuni has vast difference from Qing Zhuni.

Easiest thing to imitate 'making' that's why I ignored M's opinion in the first place. I am really tired.

Make you guys believe or not, why is it important to me? since they don't even know this kind of pot or seal.

[the_economist]

I see. Focusing on your particular pot, do you have links that show pots of similar clay to the one you have? The one that belongs to that batch of late Qing zhuni? That would be educational for me. I totally understand if you don't wish to dig them up though.

Just to make sure, the Mr Chen you're referring to is Vesper Chan the businessman?

[MarshalN]

Hi Chrl, I would be very interested to hear your side of the argument. Why do you think it is a late Qing zhuni pot (aside from the stamp)? Maybe with a better picture of the clay we'll be able to see the typical shrinkage marks associated with zhuni?

I can see and agree with you that it doesn't look to be one of those 90s replicas.

It's not 'think'. It's 'know'. You don't have to think about whether they are kyusu or yixing.

First of all, there are MANY late-Qing Zhuni that are not in what M has described. It's same as saying, all of late-Qing/ROC Ju Lun Zhu has short 'teeth' of lid or all of 5~60 SPs have short 'teeth',

truth is, variation exists. God sake, they are hand-made. I have no reason to believe Master Chen is less trustworthy than M. Who already owns hundreds of antiques plus quite well-known in antique Yixing community.

In antique Yixing community, collectors have over 90% of agreement when they point late-Qing Zhuni, it's THAT easy. Just gas kilns can't make that bubble or darken spots since they were tunnel-shaped kilns of new technology. Most importantly, the clay...anyone who has used 'late-Qing' Zhuni is quite used to this batch of Zhuni.

90s used mostly Xiaomeiyao Zhuni and modern Zhaozhuang Zhuni has vast difference from Qing Zhuni.

Easiest thing to imitate 'making' that's why I ignored M's opinion in the first place. I am really tired.

Make you guys believe or not, why is it important to me? since they don't even know this kind of pot or seal.

If you really think some dark spots or evidence of wood firing or any combo of these things prove a pot is late Qing or not - you need to get out more. Taiwanese merchants have been selling these things for decades. Stop talking to the same circle of friends who confirm each other's pot as Qing and start seeing other things. Just some friendly advice.

Since your belief is basically faith based, there's no need for argument. Good luck buying antique teapots. You'll need it.

[chrl42]

I see. Focusing on your particular pot, do you have links that show pots of similar clay to the one you have? The one that belongs to that batch of late Qing zhuni? That would be educational for me. I totally understand if you don't wish to dig them up though.

Just to make sure, the Mr Chen you're referring to is Vesper Chan the businessman?

It's just a typical late-Qing Zhuni, economist. Often seen on SE asia exported pots.

Low-fired turns yellowish and high-fired turns redish, pretty sensitive to temperature firing or brewing.

Who is that businessman?

[chrl42]

Hi Chrl, I would be very interested to hear your side of the argument. Why do you think it is a late Qing zhuni pot (aside from the stamp)? Maybe with a better picture of the clay we'll be able to see the typical shrinkage marks associated with zhuni?

I can see and agree with you that it doesn't look to be one of those 90s replicas.

It's not 'think'. It's 'know'. You don't have to think about whether they are kyusu or yixing.

First of all, there are MANY late-Qing Zhuni that are not in what M has described. It's same as saying, all of late-Qing/ROC Ju Lun Zhu has short 'teeth' of lid or all of 5~60 SPs have short 'teeth',

truth is, variation exists. God sake, they are hand-made. I have no reason to believe Master Chen is less trustworthy than M. Who already owns hundreds of antiques plus quite well-known in antique Yixing community.

In antique Yixing community, collectors have over 90% of agreement when they point late-Qing Zhuni, it's THAT easy. Just gas kilns can't make that bubble or darken spots since they were tunnel-shaped kilns of new technology. Most importantly, the clay...anyone who has used 'late-Qing' Zhuni is quite used to this batch of Zhuni.

90s used mostly Xiaomeiyao Zhuni and modern Zhaozhuang Zhuni has vast difference from Qing Zhuni.

Easiest thing to imitate 'making' that's why I ignored M's opinion in the first place. I am really tired.

Make you guys believe or not, why is it important to me? since they don't even know this kind of pot or seal.

If you really think some dark spots or evidence of wood firing or any combo of these things prove a pot is late Qing or not - you need to get out more. Taiwanese merchants have been selling these things for decades. Stop talking to the same circle of friends who confirm each other's pot as Qing and start seeing other things. Just some friendly advice.

Since your belief is basically faith based, there's no need for argument. Good luck buying antique teapots. You'll need it.

No it's not coming from Beijing

I need to calm down, you are just downplaying me that's what angers me. And I don't think you understand antique Yixings.

[Tead Off]

I am not questioning the authenticity, just trying to explain that it is difficult for people to judge through small photos because you feel that Marshaln is wrong about your pot. I think within your group, if it were not Qing, someone would have spoken up already.

Shuiping was stamped on many Qing style pots from later periods and so were Mengchen inscriptions on the bottom. We cannot judge the age of pots from these, but from the clay and the look.

Tead Off, from my experience talking with hundreds of tea/teaware collector in Greater China, NOBODY would tell you that your pot is fake in your face in China or Taiwan. Nobody, until you try to sell it to them.

There's an unwritten rule that you don't tell someone they have a fake. You just don't. People get angry, as you're seeing right here.

So, take it or leave it, it's my opinion and I'm standing by it - I can go to Taiwan tomorrow and pick out 50 pots that look like the one pictured. This looks more like a Taiwanese remake from the 80s rather than an actual late Qing pot.

Yes, maybe if the higher resolution picture changes the way it looks dramatically, I'll reconsider. Judging from what it looks like right now, chances of it being genuine is pretty low.

What do you mean by 'Taiwanese remake'? Do you mean actually made in Taiwan using local clay or clay from Yixing? Or, made in Yixing for Taiwanese market?

[chrl42]

ok got a free time my inquiries...first thing first. marshall, i think your still responsible for what you have said, for sake of teachatters, and for common good. maybe this game is seen tough for u, but for who own and use, it's really a piece ph cake..u just dont know how easy it is to authenticate late qing zhuni these days. 1. show us some example of 80s replicas..to develope this convo 2.u said the pot is in perfact shape.. this comment makes me believe u r quite elemrntary grade in this field most of 回流壶are in perfect condition in case u didnt know..thats 陶瓷 high firing enables to do so.. give me baking soda and water.. i can make your dirty used teapot look like new one after 24hrs of boiling..many replicas are im dirty condition...thats to cheAt buyers

[the_economist]

Who is that businessman?

HK based tea merchant, Vesper Chan? I see from your better photo now what clay your pot is, thanks!

[betta]

Chrl, my personal opinion is, that some people, such as vendors, want to keep the impression that it is extremely hard to get authentic old pots and this way they could, a) remain exclusive owner of "old pots" apart from common people and b) drive the price higher.

From what I read, you're not in line with this mainstream, so I could imagine that you'll get a resistance.
So, please calm down.

[kyarazen]

no comments on the authenticity issue, but i would love to give the seal carver a good whack on the head for such poor handwriting, maybe under long enough manchurian influence they forgot to write chinese characters properly already?

the words shui-ping, the shui is imbalanced and fused, the word ping similarly is compressed and the bottom stroke is of the wrong horizontal length leading it to resemble the character zhong.

the seal on the base, the seal carver did not watch his verticals and horizontals, some are slanted.

[SilentChaos]

the words shui-ping, the shui is imbalanced and fused, the word ping similarly is compressed and the bottom stroke is of the wrong horizontal length leading it to resemble the character zhong.

the seal on the base, the seal carver did not watch his verticals and horizontals, some are slanted.

+1

[Tead Off]

the words shui-ping, the shui is imbalanced and fused, the word ping similarly is compressed and the bottom stroke is of the wrong horizontal length leading it to resemble the character zhong.

the seal on the base, the seal carver did not watch his verticals and horizontals, some are slanted.

+1

Could it be a Taiwanese forgery?

[chrl42]

no comments on the authenticity issue, but i would love to give the seal carver a good whack on the head for such poor handwriting, maybe under long enough manchurian influence they forgot to write chinese characters properly already?

the words shui-ping, the shui is imbalanced and fused, the word ping similarly is compressed and the bottom stroke is of the wrong horizontal length leading it to resemble the character zhong.

the seal on the base, the seal carver did not watch his verticals and horizontals, some are slanted.

clear as this one? geez don't sound like u've never used old pot before lol

[chrl42]

the words shui-ping, the shui is imbalanced and fused, the word ping similarly is compressed and the bottom stroke is of the wrong horizontal length leading it to resemble the character zhong.

the seal on the base, the seal carver did not watch his verticals and horizontals, some are slanted.

+1

Could it be a Taiwanese forgery?

do u think so? here's another guy who can't differentiate between ROC and CR.