"Cost-effective" puers for beginners?

[William]

Sometimes, William, costly is costly. If you want cost effective, then go to Houde and snatch that last XZH '07 Kuzhushan. It's underpriced by about $200-$500, given what the current retail price is, these days. However, not a whole lot of people have the money to pay $185 up front for 400g of tea!

People very often have to have a budget, and the thread is clearly about exploration and daily drinking. How many people have the financial ability in terms of upfront space to buy $60-$120 cakes at TU, EoT, etc, let alone the $150 plus to buy anything particularly genuine? As it is, I think I have enough trouble telling people that they have to spend real money to get real tea (and be careful that they do get real tea) in appropriate forums. What made it okay for you to tell others (what is meaningful is) to drink good teas, but rarely, in a thread like this? Cheap tea serves a real function, and should be respected as such.

I get decent enough pleasure from drinking good ole 8582 and v93, enough so that I think, "ah, I'm having a good session!". Everyone should have as many chances as they desire for good sessions. If they are rich and have the stomach for it, then sure, drink fantabulous tea every day! If they are poor and want tea to drink every day, then I think it's really rather okay for them to open a bing of Xiaguan, look away as the overpowering smoke escapes (while rolling their eyes as they think "That's Xiaguan for you!"), and fix a session that they enjoy *anyways*. If they predominantly drink sencha like Chip, and only have a bing or two of the good stuff, that's good too. Or, if like Mosomoso, they like the cheap stuff that's all gnarly, that's okay. Or, if like Apache, they want to drink the teas that they grew up drinking, for the most part, even if that means factory tea, that's great too!

Are you getting the picture, man? OP wants a toe in the water, and plenty of tea. Having an idea of Russian preferences, I suspect he/she will not be put off like you or TeadOff by cheap/smoky tea.

Well, I found numerous good Pu Erh in the range 50/70 USD, an example is EoT 2012 QSG, another example is DXS wild or Xiu Lin Wu Hao from HT.
I honestly do not see these Pu Erh that expansive, particularly if we compare them with the typical 20/30 USD Xiaguan Pu Erh, that is most of the times, IMO, just crap.

I am not saying that all of the teas in this price range are not good, but the possibility to find something good (and pure) with big factories' productions, is extremely low, especially when with a few more dollars, we can have something good, undoubtedly (more) pure, since the quantity of tea involved is much lower and the possibilities to control are much higher.
Fundamental reason (for me), is that in this way we support, buying from EoT, HT, TU, what has been done by people who are first and foremost enthusiasts, like David, Akira and Eugene, in contrast to the big factories, where the sole purpose is the financial gain and the average quality, especially in the lower range (and not only) is extremely low.

[shah82]

I may sound like a snob...but no.

Virtually no new teas, roughly 2012 and later, are less than about $150, if you want actual gushu from the actual places, that demonstrates the actual reasons anyone might love such teas. And honestly, it's total silly season in 2014, and I don't expect seasonal gushu prices to stay as high as it is.

Historically, I have considered that particular price zone to be a trap, because that was where people put not-particularly-good-boutique/factory stuff in. Today, the margins for where the traps lie are probably different than in 2010. The logic is still more or less the same--the tea you want to be buying to store are much more, the tea that's a good value for drinking on a regular basis much less. Such tea that falls into the gap, while they offer good taste, ultimately proves to be mediocre while cheaper tea skyrockets, and expensive tea skyrocket even more.

When it comes right down to it, EoT from 2010 were my worst buys at the end of the age that it was possible to buy great puerh easily. Not only did factory tea purchases like 2007 Dayi An Xiang ($21 at Jase-teas) or 2005 Dayi Mengsong Peacock ($32 at Houde) go up a lot in price, they also demonstrated good changes (having had 3-5 years head start, of course) in storage. The EoT (generally $40) developed hotspots of hongcha along with the usual changes. Moreover, in general, purity only counts for so much. If you want pure stuff, you must demand very high quality materials (at expense) if you intend to age it for any length of time. Otherwise, you'll have indifferent and flat tea in time.

On the other hand, when I take out my 2003 FT Xiaguan Baoyan 'shroom, I enjoy it rather thoroughly, almost as much as I would Wisteria 2003 products, and probably more than anything other than the Zipin, on account of superior qi and aftertaste. Humble stuff is humble, so long as you understand exactly what it is, and do not expect too much from it. It's not crap, and experienced drinkers like me, or any number of the old hands drink such teas while leaving alone better tea that's vastly better than the likes of Qishenggu. Moreover, it's been my experience that David, Paul, Akira, Eugene, etc, they all must work very hard to source truly good teas, and that they simply don't have the same access of privileged others working the same scene. It takes a lot of money and a lot of power to pull truly great tea into your paws. Most of the time, like that Hai Lang Hao guy, they just talk it up a good game, set high prices, for what is relatively mediocre among good teas. There's a good chance of busting with small boutique operations, too, you know. The benefits of the big factories is that you generally know what you're getting, by reviews if not from stated recipes. Those big factories do offer values in return for their financial gains, and it's important to concede that many people do work very hard in those companies to provide tea drinkers with consistent products, just as much as the small producers. While it can be annoying how Chinese people constantly talk about this low grade tea, I do think it deserves better than to be called crap. You could be drinking Fujin, after all.

[shah82]

Ah, a proviso. When I am talking about factory teas, I'm talking about your basic recipes like 7542 or obviously successful formulas like XG no 4 and 6 recipe, Baoyan, etc, etc. It is not a good idea, for example to buy a modern Dayi Yiwu, unless you are a total n00b that doesn't want to get fleeced by all the fakes.

[William]

Virtually no new teas, roughly 2012 and later, are less than about $150, if you want actual gushu from the actual places, that demonstrates the actual reasons anyone might love such teas. And honestly, it's total silly season in 2014, and I don't expect seasonal gushu prices to stay as high as it is.

1. Lincang, plenty of gushu for 50/100 USD.
2. Gushu is not equivalent to good.
Good Pu Erh means to me, (1) as grown in harmony with the nature, better without the use of (natural) fertilizers; obviously I will not consider all those areas compromised by chemical fertilizers, herbicides and other harmful substances. (2) Well processed, since we all know what are the things that can go wrong. Stored as the enthusiast thinks is best.

Historically, I have considered that particular price zone to be a trap, because that was where people put not-particularly-good-boutique/factory stuff in.

When it comes right down to it, EoT from 2010 were my worst buys at the end of the age that it was possible to buy great puerh easily. Not only did factory tea purchases like 2007 Dayi An Xiang ($21 at Jase-teas) or 2005 Dayi Mengsong Peacock ($32 at Houde) go up a lot in price, they also demonstrated good changes (having had 3-5 years head start, of course) in storage. The EoT (generally $40) developed hotspots of hongcha along with the usual changes. Moreover, in general, purity only counts for so much. If you want pure stuff, you must demand very high quality materials (at expense) if you intend to age it for any length of time. Otherwise, you'll have indifferent and flat tea in time.

I do not know what Pu Erh you have tried, but those tried by me recently, for example, 2012 EoT QiShengGu (63 USD), 2011 EoT Manhai (50 USD), 2012 EoT Baotang (80 USD), 2011 Mr. Feng (77 USD), 2010 Mr. Feng (93 USD), were for the majority extremely good and well priced. The same for Akira and Eugene.

Humble stuff is humble, so long as you understand exactly what it is, and do not expect too much from it. It's not crap, and experienced drinkers like me, or any number of the old hands drink such teas while leaving alone better tea that's vastly better than the likes of Qishenggu.

Do you really believe that experienced people drink XG Pu Erh priced 20/30 USD? I do not think so.

Moreover, it's been my experience that David, Paul, Akira, Eugene, etc, they all must work very hard to source truly good teas, and that they simply don't have the same access of privileged others working the same scene. It takes a lot of money and a lot of power to pull truly great tea into your paws.

In my opinion, although they are not within the group of these privileged, they are doing an excellent work, without nothing to envy to these elite groups.

The benefits of the big factories is that you generally know what you're getting, by reviews if not from stated recipes. Those big factories do offer values in return for their financial gains, and it's important to concede that many people do work very hard in those companies to provide tea drinkers with consistent products, just as much as the small producers.

Well, I think that trying new Pu Erh from these sellers and find something that we may like, is definitely different from buying these recipes, characterized by standardized (that does not mean good) quality.

[..] experienced drinkers like me [..]

Ps. Maybe you should be a little more humble, lets call experienced drinkers people like Tim, TeadOff, Teaism and many others.

Ah, a proviso. When I am talking about factory teas, I'm talking about your basic recipes like 7542 or obviously successful formulas like XG no 4 and 6 recipe, Baoyan, etc, etc. It is not a good idea, for example to buy a modern Dayi Yiwu, unless you are a total n00b that doesn't want to get fleeced by all the fakes.

PPs. This was already clear to me.

[AllanK]

As we are on the subject of Gushu, what are some good Gushu teas available now and where to get them? I am sure I have bought some Gushu, but not much. If I am correct Gushu means old tree tea, or does it refer to forest tea?

[kyarazen]

As we are on the subject of Gushu, what are some good Gushu teas available now and where to get them? I am sure I have bought some Gushu, but not much. If I am correct Gushu means old tree tea, or does it refer to forest tea?

gushu = 古树 = old tree
forest tea or wild tea = 野生

[shah82]

1) There are lots of lincang gushu that costs $50-$100 because the vast majority of them aren't really any good. Moreover, if you want to go that route, Yunnan Sourcing has tons of dependable lincangs and wuliangs for $20-$30. Moreover, the ones that are any good tends to be relatively expensive because the best areas are small, compared to 'banna teas. Lastly, expensive lincang teas tend to be promoted because the margins are usually higher than found in lancang or 'banna.

2) I have been saying, in effect, that gushu is not necessarily equivalent to good, or good enough. That's because I'm saying that what you tend to think of as good is set at a much lower level than what I'd think of as good. This is not to discourage people from drinking Nada's teas. They aren't bad and they are not trash and they can be very pleasant. Even so, you promoted things like Qishenggu rather than something a little more typical like the Baotang, even though that's ten pounds more. I found this indicative of an aesthetic that you tend to promote as natural and neutral way to judge quality, and I think that you tend to be unnecessarily judgmental (especially at your experience level) of teas that do not fit your values. I mean, how can anyone judge "grown in harmony with Nature"? And I'd want the trees to have fertilizer, since old trees need to be cared for if they are going to be picked all the time. Your sentiment sounds obnoxiously like evangelical veganism. Since you basically can't tell whether that leaf has never had glycophospate or anything else on it if the application is done right, why draw on stories or imaginary idylls to boost what you feel in the mouth, nose, and body?

3) My world and my choices (if I had money) do not center around teas made in 2011 and later. If I were to be buying tea again, I would mostly be buying older teas, most likely from Houde, white2tea, and Origintea (well, obviously not for long). That's because I enjoy, for both sheng and shu, five-seven-more years of maturity. If I were to be buying some flashy hot young thing (unlikely), I would be, at this point, unlikely to purchase anything but a good to exceptional 'banna tea, which would be a commitment of hundreds of dollars for a couple of cakes (the reason why). Point blank, in my circumstances, I already have stuff near the pinnacle, now I need stuff I can drink. As advocacy, I would want the n00b to purchase exactly what he or she needs instead of what is good for boasting (most y'all can't even *buy* tea you can truly boast about, now). I think there is far too much of people saying some tea this or tea that is superior, when that just can't be the case, given the price ($50, $80, etc, because *good* post-2010 tea generally *starts* at $150). Maybe Qishenggu is right for that n00b. However, maybe Jinuo Factory Red Sun Drum '05 is the actual right tea. You don't know, and I don't know. Maybe the smoke is preferred?!?! You don't know, and I don't know.

4) /me shrugs. I drink XG puerh that I paid $19 bucks for, and I'd drink it far more if I had more of it. Plenty of people drink xiaguan tuos that they've bought when they were very cheap. People drink it for work. People drink it at home when they don't want to fuss. Puerh can fit our lives as we need it. Xiaguan, Dayi, Mengyang Guoyan, Fengqing ChaChang, Shuangjiang Mengku... Veterans around the world are drinking cheapass tea they bought long ago, for any variety of reasons. The tea that doesn't get drunk tends to be the genuine crap like longyuanhao or 6FTM's worse ideas. We haven't even talked about factory shu!

5) I've been there, done that, gotten the teashirt. EoT makes good tea for what it is, and I've once thought it could be compared to Sanhetang and others. That sentiment could not hold over time. More than that, at this point, I *know*, to some degree, what I can ask for from teas. Those requirement tends to be satisfied by the Bangwei33 at EoT or the 2012 Xikong at TU. However, only as a minimum, and it's not common among either place's stock. Never had Hojo's tea.

6) Do you think that people have infinite money for samples? It was expensive (and inadvisable due to stock selling out before you tasted them) to sample teas when I first started. There is a purpose in consistent expectations. Some people also like the fact that the leaves are chopped up and that there is a blend that creates a balanced profile. It might be a narrow taste compared to the broad taste of gushu, but it's usually more balanced and the mulched structure is more accessible to microorganisms (or so the theory goes).

7) There's the rub. Do you think you're more experienced than me? That TeadOff is more experienced than me? Would you necessarily need to assume that TIM or Teaism agrees with you? Remember, the problem here is that I think you tend to be unnecessarily belligerent while demonstrating a degree of ignorance and projection. Lord knows, I was never a huge enthusiast about factory tea, but when I advised people, I try to take their needs and concerns into account, and oftentimes, that means suggesting some factory made teas (with boutique selections when those fit, too!). And I get feedback when they are happy with my suggestions. People have different motivations for approaching tea, and all of those motivations should be respected, equally.

[William]

1) There are lots of lincang gushu that costs $50-$100 because the vast majority of them aren't really any good. Moreover, if you want to go that route, Yunnan Sourcing has tons of dependable lincangs and wuliangs for $20-$30. Moreover, the ones that are any good tends to be relatively expensive because the best areas are small, compared to 'banna teas. Lastly, expensive lincang teas tend to be promoted because the margins are usually higher than found in lancang or 'banna.

I would say that the DXS fromo EoT or from HT, or other Lincang gushu from these and other seller are in my opinion good. I would never compare these with the ones from YS, simply because generally Pu Erh frome EoT, HT, TU win hands down.

2) I have been saying, in effect, that gushu is not necessarily equivalent to good, or good enough. That's because I'm saying that what you tend to think of as good is set at a much lower level than what I'd think of as good. This is not to discourage people from drinking Nada's teas. They aren't bad and they are not trash and they can be very pleasant. Even so, you promoted things like Qishenggu rather than something a little more typical like the Baotang, even though that's ten pounds more. I found this indicative of an aesthetic that you tend to promote as natural and neutral way to judge quality, and I think that you tend to be unnecessarily judgmental (especially at your experience level) of teas that do not fit your values. I mean, how can anyone judge "grown in harmony with Nature"? And I'd want the trees to have fertilizer, since old trees need to be cared for if they are going to be picked all the time. Your sentiment sounds obnoxiously like evangelical veganism. Since you basically can't tell whether that leaf has never had glycophospate or anything else on it if the application is done right, why draw on stories or imaginary idylls to boost what you feel in the mouth, nose, and body?

Thickness of body and aftertaste, pureness in mouth and throat, body reaction. Nothing more my friend.

3) My world and my choices (if I had money) do not center around teas made in 2011 and later. If I were to be buying tea again, I would mostly be buying older teas, most likely from Houde, white2tea, and Origintea (well, obviously not for long). That's because I enjoy, for both sheng and shu, five-seven-more years of maturity. If I were to be buying some flashy hot young thing (unlikely), I would be, at this point, unlikely to purchase anything but a good to exceptional 'banna tea, which would be a commitment of hundreds of dollars for a couple of cakes (the reason why). Point blank, in my circumstances, I already have stuff near the pinnacle, now I need stuff I can drink. As advocacy, I would want the n00b to purchase exactly what he or she needs instead of what is good for boasting (most y'all can't even *buy* tea you can truly boast about, now). I think there is far too much of people saying some tea this or tea that is superior, when that just can't be the case, given the price ($50, $80, etc, because *good* post-2010 tea generally *starts* at $150). Maybe Qishenggu is right for that n00b. However, maybe Jinuo Factory Red Sun Drum '05 is the actual right tea. You don't know, and I don't know. Maybe the smoke is preferred?!?! You don't know, and I don't know.

This is your own choice, more than legitimate, therefore, nothing to say.
What I find curious is if you are evaluating various Pu Erh only based on the price? So Pu Erh that cost 50/100 USD will not be superior because of that price?

4) /me shrugs. I drink XG puerh that I paid $19 bucks for, and I'd drink it far more if I had more of it. Plenty of people drink xiaguan tuos that they've bought when they were very cheap. People drink it for work. People drink it at home when they don't want to fuss. Puerh can fit our lives as we need it. Xiaguan, Dayi, Mengyang Guoyan, Fengqing ChaChang, Shuangjiang Mengku... Veterans around the world are drinking cheapass tea they bought long ago, for any variety of reasons. The tea that doesn't get drunk tends to be the genuine crap like longyuanhao or 6FTM's worse ideas. We haven't even talked about factory shu!

Well, I have never compared old XG with the new ones, since my comment was directed to the new ones. I am sure that many veterans around the world drink XG older than me , but I am not so sure that they drink tuos made a few years ago . I would say that there are (more than a few) difference, mostly quality of the leaves, between the older ones and the newer ones.

6) Do you think that people have infinite money for samples? It was expensive (and inadvisable due to stock selling out before you tasted them) to sample teas when I first started. There is a purpose in consistent expectations. Some people also like the fact that the leaves are chopped up and that there is a blend that creates a balanced profile. It might be a narrow taste compared to the broad taste of gushu, but it's usually more balanced and the mulched structure is more accessible to microorganisms (or so the theory goes).

Well, I greatly prefer to spend for many samples from different sellers and buy just a few beengs of what I liked the most. But if you are happy to purchase these recipes, who am I to say otherwise!

7) There's the rub. Do you think you're more experienced than me? That TeadOff is more experienced than me? Would you necessarily need to assume that TIM or Teaism agrees with you? Remember, the problem here is that I think you tend to be unnecessarily belligerent while demonstrating a degree of ignorance and projection. Lord knows, I was never a huge enthusiast about factory tea, but when I advised people, I try to take their needs and concerns into account, and oftentimes, that means suggesting some factory made teas (with boutique selections when those fit, too!). And I get feedback when they are happy with my suggestions. People have different motivations for approaching tea, and all of those motivations should be respected, equally.

Absolutely not. I am and always will be a novice. Never had the idea of ​​calling myself experienced drinker, now as in 40 years.
Well, I am sure that a few members here on TC started to drink and study a few years before you, so if I have to call someone an experienced drinkers, these would be the people I mentioned in my previous post.

I obviously respect every point of view, in the end, if someone is happy with what he has, of course I will silence. What I find doubtful is calling XG tuos or common XG beengs a few years old good teas, because in my opinion these are not good teas.

[shah82]

Just to address the very last point in this stupid timesuck:

I have never said that those tuos were *good*. I'm not trying to elevate a 7532. Whether that be from 2012 or 2005 or 1995. In the end, these teas are not made for people seeking some wonderfully mystical session. They are made because people want *tea*. The idea that they'd age into some wonderful nectar of the gods is a marketing add-on. If easy drinkability was a priority, then people buy *shu*. Talking smack about how such teas aren't good is a gustatory injustice. How would you feel if I said that your slapped together lunch isn't good? Just because it's not a meal at a three star (at least) restaurant or a loving cooked home meal by the wife/girlfriend/yourself/mom/dad/whoever? Don't be a passive-aggressive git, and if you're going to be a snob, at least be a proper *snob* and promote a bona-fide luxury item in place (or talk about an unusual way to appreciate something, like Teaism putting aloe resin shavings in his tea).

[William]

Talking smack about how such teas aren't good is a gustatory injustice.

I find these Pu Erh, most of the time, of extremely low quality. So what I should say? That are good as a daily tea? That are not that bad? I will never say this, if something is not good, is correct to describe it as not good.

How would you feel if I said that your slapped together lunch isn't good?

If this lunch is of very poor quality, you have the right to tell me that, in fact I would be happy to hear this, in order to improve my skills every time. What it is not fair is telling me that the lunch was good, while not.

and if you're going to be a snob, at least be a proper *snob* and promote a bona-fide luxury item in place (or talk about an unusual way to appreciate something

Sorry, snoberism is not for me.

[AllanK]

[/quote]

I would say that the DXS fromo EoT or from HT, or other Lincang gushu from these and other seller are in my opinion good. I would never compare these with the ones from YS, simply because generally Pu Erh frome EoT, HT, TU win hands down.

[/quote]

What are the actual names and websites for EoT, HT, and TU?

[Chip]

Officially speaking ...

[William]

What are the actual names and websites for EoT, HT, and TU?

Here are the various website.

EoT ~ http://www.essenceoftea.com/
TU ~ http://teaurchin.com/
HT ~ http://hojotea.com/indexe.html

[chrl42]

For me it's XG tuos...07 XGs can be still very bitter.

How can you stand that stuff? Cheap Charlie.

Those plantation teas of course suck before 10 years of storage, and +15 yrs in drier places.


Seeking 'old taste' is the only way out, that's how I reset my opinion on Longyuanhao (the worst factory on my list before) after having 01 woody taste. Or early 6FTMs. These mass-produced major factories' are really affordable when new and maybe just plain bitter for the time being..but could have a dramatic change after a decade or more, depending on blending.

[Tead Off]

Sometimes, William, costly is costly. If you want cost effective, then go to Houde and snatch that last XZH '07 Kuzhushan. It's underpriced by about $200-$500, given what the current retail price is, these days. However, not a whole lot of people have the money to pay $185 up front for 400g of tea!

People very often have to have a budget, and the thread is clearly about exploration and daily drinking. How many people have the financial ability in terms of upfront space to buy $60-$120 cakes at TU, EoT, etc, let alone the $150 plus to buy anything particularly genuine? As it is, I think I have enough trouble telling people that they have to spend real money to get real tea (and be careful that they do get real tea) in appropriate forums. What made it okay for you to tell others (what is meaningful is) to drink good teas, but rarely, in a thread like this? Cheap tea serves a real function, and should be respected as such.

I get decent enough pleasure from drinking good ole 8582 and v93, enough so that I think, "ah, I'm having a good session!". Everyone should have as many chances as they desire for good sessions. If they are rich and have the stomach for it, then sure, drink fantabulous tea every day! If they are poor and want tea to drink every day, then I think it's really rather okay for them to open a bing of Xiaguan, look away as the overpowering smoke escapes (while rolling their eyes as they think "That's Xiaguan for you!"), and fix a session that they enjoy *anyways*. If they predominantly drink sencha like Chip, and only have a bing or two of the good stuff, that's good too. Or, if like Mosomoso, they like the cheap stuff that's all gnarly, that's okay. Or, if like Apache, they want to drink the teas that they grew up drinking, for the most part, even if that means factory tea, that's great too!

Are you getting the picture, man? OP wants a toe in the water, and plenty of tea. Having an idea of Russian preferences, I suspect he/she will not be put off like you or TeadOff by cheap/smoky tea.

Man, if you want cheap, affordable, good tea, that can give you a 'toe' into the cheaper Puerh world, Yunnan Sourcing has tons of it that are not smoky. As a personal recommendation, Jiangjiatang has 2007 cakes in his Kou Liang series for $23 that are decent, drinkable, and clean. I've had the Ba Da in this series. Why not support him rather than a big company cranking out crap like Xiaguan?

Drinkers on this board who cannot afford to pay expensive prices would probably do well to save all the money they spend on crap tea and simply buy a better tea. Their knowledge and enjoyment will both be increased. It's amazing at how much money is wasted on poor quality tea and teaware.