Gyokuro Tamahomare opinions and steeping

[Poseidon]

stainless steel doesnt rust, but it can react chemically with substances. its possible to remove rust in tetsubin by boiling tea leaves in it.. hmm.. where does the rust go?

different boiling vessels made of different materials can do different things to water.

1) tall kettles have large thermal gradients, its hotter at the bottom close to the heat source, its cooler at the top. the difference can be 8 degrees celsius or so

2) alcohol heated boiling is slow, weak, the temperature gradient is much larger. induction heating or other methods where the bottom of the kettle becomes a uniform intense heater, the temperature gradient is lesser, around 3 degrees or so.

3) gently boiled water can preserve more hydrogen bonding between water molecules than an intense rolling boil (this is evident from the mpemba effect, where boiling water ironically freezes faster than cool water)

4) hydrogen bonding determines how things are dissolved.
tea brewing is a mixture of processes, dried tea juice on the surface of leaves can be "dissolved out" very easily, but proper infusion of the leaf proper requires water permeation into the leaf.

this is opposed by the fact that leaves of plants are naturally water proof (thinner cuticle for buds, thicker for old leaves) ... in tea leaf there isnt easy entry or easy infusion unless the leaf is crushed, bruised.

through respective channels for water entry, water is absorbed by the leaf, the tea leaf compounds then dissolved in the absorbed water diffusing out to give the tea brew.

why does hydrogen bonding matter?imagine a long line of 50 humans holding hands in a straight line running into a narrow tunnel versus individuals running in..

Droppin' some knowledge on ya!

[BioHorn]

Looks like this effect still eludes physicists. I dug up a couple of suggestions:

Dr Zhang's team believe these bonds explain the Mpemba effect, as the hydrogen bonds bring individual water molecules into close contact, which triggers natural repulsion between the molecules and causes the covalent bonds between oxygen and hydrogen bonds to stretch as well as store energy.

This is their theory...

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-bl ... a2f611e853

Radiation safety officer with the State University of New York, James Brownridge, has been studying the effect in his spare time for the last decade, carrying out hundreds of experiments, and now says he has evidence that supercooling is involved. Brownridge said he found water usually supercools at 0°C and only begins freezing below this temperature. The freezing point is governed by impurities in the water that seed ice crystal formation. Impurities such as dust, bacteria, and dissolved salts all have a characteristic nucleation temperature, and when several are present the freezing point is determined by the one with the highest nucleation temperature.
In his experiments, Brownridge took two water samples at the same temperature and placed them in a freezer. He found that one would usually freeze before the other, presumably because of a slightly different mix of impurities. He then removed the samples from the freezer, warmed one to room temperature and the other to 80°C and then froze them again. The results were that if the difference in freezing point was at least 5°C, the one with the highest freezing point always froze before the other if it was heated to 80°C and then re-frozen.
Brownridge said the hot water cools faster because of the bigger difference in temperature between the water and the freezer, and this helps it reach its freezing point before the cold water reaches its natural freezing point, which is at least 5°C lower. He also said all the conditions must be controlled, such as the location of the samples in the freezer, and the type of container, which he said other researchers had not done.
The effect now known as the Mpemba effect was first noted in the 4th century BC by Aristotle, and many scientists have noted the same phenomenon in the centuries since Aristotle’s time. It was dubbed the Mpemba effect in the 1960s when schoolboy Erasto Mpemba from Tanzania claimed in his science class that ice cream would freeze faster if it was heated first before being put in the freezer. The laughter ended only when a school inspector tried the experiment himself and vindicated him.

http://phys.org/news188801988.html

Theories for the Mpemba effect have included:
-faster evaporation of hot water, which reduces the volume left to freeze

-formation of a frost layer on cold water, insulating it

-different concentrations of solutes such as carbon dioxide, which is driven off when the water is heated

(This has had a *little* thread creep?!)

[Chip]

And one other word of advice... don't get so wrapped up in chasing a past tea moment that you miss the current tea moment.

+1 ... I have seen many new members come on and look to re-source that great tea they bought somewhere that is now discontinued or a spectacular brew result. I think sometimes the memory may be playing with them. The memory becomes almost ... mythical. I have been there and done that as well. Fortunately I learned after failures to focus on the present and forward.

[entropyembrace]

Wow, look at this thread go!

For the stainless steel vs tetsubin debate, all I can say is don't knock it till you tried it. In my constant experience (through reproducable experimentation) stainless steel produces a poorer result than tetsubin, by a large margin. Perhaps we could say that each material is influencing the flavor... some materials influence for the worse and some materials influence for the better. Though the adamant suggestion that stainless steel is somehow "pure" and offers no influence to the water is somewhat disconcerting.

Anyone want to do a series of blind triangle tests?

I don't really have any reason to doubt the tetsubin is better but I do wonder about stainless steel vs glass or glazed ceramic. I've used stainless steel, teflon coated, and glazed ceramic kettles and never noticed a difference in taste between those three. But I've never had the glazed ceramic beside the other two to compare directly.

[Chip]

... hrmm ... should I split off the great stainless vs. Tetsubin debate into a new topic?

[theredbaron]

Wow, look at this thread go!

For the stainless steel vs tetsubin debate, all I can say is don't knock it till you tried it. In my constant experience (through reproducable experimentation) stainless steel produces a poorer result than tetsubin, by a large margin. Perhaps we could say that each material is influencing the flavor... some materials influence for the worse and some materials influence for the better. Though the adamant suggestion that stainless steel is somehow "pure" and offers no influence to the water is somewhat disconcerting.

Anyone want to do a series of blind triangle tests?

I don't really have any reason to doubt the tetsubin is better but I do wonder about stainless steel vs glass or glazed ceramic. I've used stainless steel, teflon coated, and glazed ceramic kettles and never noticed a difference in taste between those three. But I've never had the glazed ceramic beside the other two to compare directly.

I have never used a tetsubin. But i have taken part in tests between stainless, different clay kettles, and also with different heat sources.
The samples you cited - glazed ceramic, teflon coated, and stainless are neither traditional materials for kettles, nor really used or recommended.
Traditional, and widely used are kettles made from unglazed clays (mostly China and Taiwan), iron (Japan), and also silver. In both China and Japan copper is used as well, but i have no real experience with that.

In tea, it is not really about the most "neutral" material. What people look for is what material improves water quality, and therefor the experience and taste of tea. Yixing pots, for example, are not about a "neutral" taste experience, but how they improve the tea.

The difference of the material of the kettle is very subtle, far less important than quality of the water. Using stainless kettles is perfectly fine, it doesn't destroy the tea as bad water will do. I use a stainless kettle when i travel, for convenience. At home though i use kettles that give me that slightly better experience.

[entropyembrace]

Wow, look at this thread go!

For the stainless steel vs tetsubin debate, all I can say is don't knock it till you tried it. In my constant experience (through reproducable experimentation) stainless steel produces a poorer result than tetsubin, by a large margin. Perhaps we could say that each material is influencing the flavor... some materials influence for the worse and some materials influence for the better. Though the adamant suggestion that stainless steel is somehow "pure" and offers no influence to the water is somewhat disconcerting.

Anyone want to do a series of blind triangle tests?

I don't really have any reason to doubt the tetsubin is better but I do wonder about stainless steel vs glass or glazed ceramic. I've used stainless steel, teflon coated, and glazed ceramic kettles and never noticed a difference in taste between those three. But I've never had the glazed ceramic beside the other two to compare directly.

I have never used a tetsubin. But i have taken part in tests between stainless, different clay kettles, and also with different heat sources.
The samples you cited - glazed ceramic, teflon coated, and stainless are neither traditional materials for kettles, nor really used or recommended.
Traditional, and widely used are kettles made from unglazed clays (mostly China and Taiwan), iron (Japan), and also silver. In both China and Japan copper is used as well, but i have no real experience with that.

In tea, it is not really about the most "neutral" material. What people look for is what material improves water quality, and therefor the experience and taste of tea. Yixing pots, for example, are not about a "neutral" taste experience, but how they improve the tea.

The difference of the material of the kettle is very subtle, far less important than quality of the water. Using stainless kettles is perfectly fine, it doesn't destroy the tea as bad water will do. I use a stainless kettle when i travel, for convenience. At home though i use kettles that give me that slightly better experience.

Generally I agree with that I only wanted to make the point that stainless steel is ok to use and will not ruin your tea, not to argue that it's the ideal tea kettle material

I do think maybe this should be split off since what's the ideal material for a tea kettle doesn't have much to do with addressing the fundamental brewing parameters for gyokuro

[Kaytea]

Wow, look at this thread go!

For the stainless steel vs tetsubin debate, all I can say is don't knock it till you tried it. In my constant experience (through reproducable experimentation) stainless steel produces a poorer result than tetsubin, by a large margin. Perhaps we could say that each material is influencing the flavor... some materials influence for the worse and some materials influence for the better. Though the adamant suggestion that stainless steel is somehow "pure" and offers no influence to the water is somewhat disconcerting.

70c water is just a waste of the gyokuro imho. I suppose it's not impossible that this particular gyokuro is better at 70 than at 60, but it would be the first in my experience Did you try the instructions I wrote in the first reply?

I looked up the Tamahomare, and it seems to be from Marukyu Koyamaen, which is a very old and respected tea company in Kyoto. The instructions on their website for their Gyokuro uses 7-8gm... 55c water... for 90-120 seconds. Take a looksee here:
http://www.marukyu-koyamaen.co.jp/engli ... okuro.html

I'm not sayin' nuthin. If you enjoy what you get from the teahouse then that's what you should shoot for. It seems odd that you can't reproduce it from their instructions, but their instructions do seem odd.

Edit: Also, and unfortunately, you're getting ripped off badly on the price.

Thank you so much for the website link. I'll give it a try as well. I agree that certain things seem odd and frankly that surprises me. The quality has always been impeccable and it's the first time I stumble upon something like that. I've sent an email asking about the discrepancies. Hopefully it's an honest mistake that was never noticed. I do hope so because I've trusted them for so long and know of their history. I was there at their (late) beginnings and they taught me so much! I know they go the extra miles to find teas that most places will not be able to get their hands on.

Also, I did try your proposed method and it didn't work either. While the brew was stronger it had a light bitterness to it and wasn't as sweet. I'll be sure to check the new instructions provided and the ones from your link. In your link, they use a different vessel, do you think it would make much of a difference if I keep using my kyusu?

[Kaytea]

And one other word of advice... don't get so wrapped up in chasing a past tea moment that you miss the current tea moment.

+1 ... I have seen many new members come on and look to re-source that great tea they bought somewhere that is now discontinued or a spectacular brew result. I think sometimes the memory may be playing with them. The memory becomes almost ... mythical. I have been there and done that as well. Fortunately I learned after failures to focus on the present and forward.

Agreed, but I went back during the 2 week of this very September to be amazed again. Same amazing taste as all those years before. I'm not chasing a ghost. I know it's there, I just don't get the mechanics that make me fail.

[Kaytea]

... hrmm ... should I split off the great stainless vs. Tetsubin debate into a new topic?

I think you should. The title of this thread might be misleading to others who could bring more to this conversation. Make it the debate of the year on TeaChat!

[Kaytea]

Then, because the topic has strayed a bit... I would bring another question:

Should all Gyokuro teas be brewed the same way for maximumbalance and taste? Will all Gyokuro be at their best if they were brewed in the same vessel, same temperature, with the same water (brewed in the best kettle, of course!) and for the same amount of time?

Here disregard what might be a personal preference, I'm talking about tea cupping as they do to evaluate the quality of a tea, let's say... in a competition or something like that.

[chingwa]

Also, I did try your proposed method and it didn't work either. While the brew was stronger it had a light bitterness to it and wasn't as sweet. I'll be sure to check the new instructions provided and the ones from your link. In your link, they use a different vessel, do you think it would make much of a difference if I keep using my kyusu?

The vessel in their pictures is a kyusu of a different type for sure, but it's still essentially the same thing. It looks to be porcelain and wouldn't have the same interaction as a clay pot. You're probably better served getting closer to the teaware used at the teahouse you frequent... but still I would think it's more likely the other preparation parameters that effect this the most.

Another variable is tea storage (so many variables!). Once exposed to air green tea tends to lose it's flavor very quickly... within a couple weeks. Is it possible the gyokuro you have at home is getting stale? Best practice is to keep it tightly packed (if it's in a bag, roll the excess down and clip it. If it's in a can... put it in a bag and roll the excess down and clip it ) and keep it in a relatively cool dry place away from odors.

There also a strange amorphous fact that tea is often better when it's made by someone else and given to you. Noone understands why.

[chingwa]

Should all Gyokuro teas be brewed the same way...

Yes, there are standard brewing guidelines for gyokuro, as mentioned here and similar on the Marukyu Koyamaen site. These are the best places to start for any Gyokuro tea.

No, not every tea will be maximized from this standard brewing... depending on the varietal of tree, the place/altitude it's grown, the processing, etc etc. etc. There are infinite parameters.

However the only parameter that really matters is how it tastes to the one drinking it. So keep experimenting until you get what you like. (and then keep experimenting some more )

[Kaytea]

I got into contact with one of the experts of the place. He cleared lots of doubt. Camellia Sinensis is a very respected tea house that export its own tea (as opposed to Teavana using Metropolitan teas).

The infusion should be shorter and while it may surprise a few, they assured me that for this tea, 70C was the optimal temperature. Besides, I've often read that for further infusions 80C was frequently used to get other flavours out of the tea.

It turns out I've been misinformed (by whom, I'm not even sure anymore). He said the water was most likely at fault. I still got my Fiji water to try (I've been turned off by my experiments a bit, but I'll get back into making another kyusu of the delicious brew), and we have ordered re-mineralizing filters (or whatever it's called) for our filtering system.

Also, I was reading a bit of the Tea Sommelier book written by Gabriella Lombardi and found this on water:

"Lu Yu, in the Classic of Tea, recommend using the same water that nourished the tea plant while it was growing. Even without going to such extend, you can use mineral or spring water. What is important is that it is pure, odorless, colorless, mildly acidic (with a PH less than 7), soft *the softness or hardness of water is expressed in French degrees; in this case, to qualify as soft water must not exceed a limit of 8° F) and with a minimal mineral content (with a dry residue < 50 mg/l)."

While I don't understand this "8°F" thing (logically that would mean frozen water, that can't be it!), Maybe some of you would be interested in this data and could maybe make more sense out of it than me.

Thanks for all the great tips! I owe an apology to those that said water was important and I dismissed it because of all the different opinions on the matter.
So, I'm sorry, I thought I knew better. It would seem that I still got tons to learn! I'm glad I found this forum.

[chrl42]

Filtered water is the softest we can get, isn't it? or distilled water..very soft. Mineral water..especially Fiji (which comes from volcanic rocks), should belong to hard water category.

But filtered water drops a pH degree, you should boil it to increase it.

Talking about water is always fun and difficult..from my experience, any volcanic water (Fiji, Samdasoo, Baekdu (Changbaishan)) gave green tea quite a darker brewing. And I think this type is certainly not soft, please get me corrected.