Ivory, really?

[ethan]

john, Do you mean people lie on-line? What a shock!
Recently selling retail at international bazaars, I was often asked, "Can I order this from your website?" Being told that I don't have a website, turned people off. Many people don't want to inspect an item in their hands until it has arrived at their home through an on-line purchase. Others at my tables wanted to have something to read about my products right there, rather than talk w/ me. When I called their attention to a celadon teapot, no one asked me what celadon was. When I asked whether they knew what celadon was, no one did. Later I put an explanation of celadon out that several people took minutes to read.
For many people mendacity & hyperbole on the internet is preferable to personal perception & contact.

[Evan Draper]

It is very interesting to me how things go from "unremarkable" to "unthinkable" in such a short period of time. Personally, I would never purchase ivory even if it came with unimpeachable certification of antiquity, and I applaud those who are going the extra mile to report wrongdoing. But I hope we can afford everyone delicacy and understanding, including those past, "unevolved" versions of ourselves. I think that is the best method for achieving greater moral sensitivity in ourselves and as a society.

[JBaymore]

ethan,

If you just watch people walking around staring that their cell phone screens, or sitting at a table together staring that their cell phone screens........ you begin to understand the changes in society.

If they asked you about celadon...... they'd have to have a REAL human interaction.

"He said as he typed on a computer using the internet".


best,

................john

[.m.]

this is all a very tricky and controversial subject.

i feel say that the notion of "zen" in the west is rather idealized. i don't think there is any contradiction between zen and cruelty, and perhaps one can even say that a cruelty is inherent to zen. it would be impossible to absent the cruelty aspect from our world. for example, when a tree is cut down there is certain cruelty present (at least it often makes me sad), which is then inherited, for example, to a tea table. but to make myself clear, i'm not trying to relativize. some things are just repulsive, and if done in name of a certain culture, it doesn't make them better.

talking about an antique ivory or an ivory coming from an animal that died naturally, i don't feel like it should be destroyed, however one should be aware what it stands for, and the awful things that it symbolizes. so, i don't think i would put that on my tea table. anyway there is no reason to use it, it is all superficial.

ps. chip, you have my support.
blairswhitaker, thanks for sharing with us aspects of japanese culture, whatever they are.

[rdl]

This should not be a discussion for or against zen buddhism nor the tea ceremony unless you are part of a group that secretly infiltrates and films to expose the wrongdoings of that organization (and there is no need to here). Japan and tea ceremony schools in general are open and unabashed concerning their traditions and materials, etc, whatever they are. Within the narrow confines of chado, has anyone ever heard of any conflict of ivory and the practice?
However, if the feeling of ivory and all it now implies is repugnant, then by all means make your voice heard loud and strong. One day the ripples will make their way to, and possibly alter, traditional perceptions where ever in the world ideas of the that kind are held.
Arguing history, motive, tradition, religion is besides the point. What is relevant is current laws and the growing trend that ivory reuse, production, sales in all forms are not acceptable and those who believe this have their role to play in making change. It becomes a topic here only because certain tea ware are fashioned from ivory.

[Chip]

... BTW, I was referring to I guess western "zen" versus Zen Buddhism. No offense was intended ...

[JBaymore]

I re-state my question:

So given the discussion happening here...... should the huge number of museums that hold objects from Japan (and China) made of ivory and have them in their collections and often on display, no longer exhibit these works? And should they then destroy the pieces held in their collections?

best,

..................john

[Chip]

Thank you to all for your conscientious postings.

John, I have no clear answer to your question at this point. I do not think we should eliminate the history of the use of ivory, this is why we have museums dedicated to the history of things like slavery and the Holocaust.

But I can hope one day it will not be glamorized in such venues as I guess it is today.

It is part of history, nevertheless ...

... my opinion could vastly change. Time for sencha, TeaFriends.

[rdl]

I re-state my question:

So given the discussion happening here...... should the huge number of museums that hold objects from Japan (and China) made of ivory and have them in their collections and often on display, no longer exhibit these works? And should they then destroy the pieces held in their collections?

best,

..................john

John,
I have no answer, just a few thoughts.
Who we are and what we have done as humankind certainly belongs in museums. So, no, collections with ivory should not be banned or burned. Even a "shrunken" head has a reason to be on view, but I would hope the reasoning for it and reaction to seeing it would be different than it once was a century or two before. Museums let us see this progress in outlook, development, in addition to all the other experiences we have at museums.
However, the progress we make as humankind, in all aspects and certainly in showing greater humanity towards everything that surrounds us, is the purpose for altering current views on ivory, and other things also but not to get off topic. And then one day in the future at a museum of Sociology near you, you'll see those activists and supporters who a long time ago changed the views and behavior of human beings.

[Chip]

In response to John's ebay comments. I have had one ebay seller in Japan reply to my question in the affirmative that chaire they sell have ivory lids.

The seller I mentioned previously has their own site but they are also ebay sellers. I have to see if they sell ivory on ebay as well.

Before I disclose further details including seller names, I will be certain of my information. But it would not take much looking by anyone interested to figure it out.

[kyarazen]

the "zen" aesthetic whether the western idealized version or the japanese edition tend to revolve around the core of accepting things as they are by living in the present moment, being in a state of awareness, and the understanding of the notion on how things are transient and impermanent.

the time element is "dilated" as one spaces out, slows down, conscious awareness arises. the eventual obstacles, which will subsequently lead to the regression, is the inability to transcend the objects that are used in the tea making process (both leading to the arising of attachment and discrimination), and the inability to transcend the throbbing loud ego

this is all a very tricky and controversial subject.

i feel say that the notion of "zen" in the west is rather idealized. i don't think there is any contradiction between zen and cruelty, and perhaps one can even say that a cruelty is inherent to zen. it would be impossible to absent the cruelty aspect from our world. for example, when a tree is cut down there is certain cruelty present (at least it often makes me sad), which is then inherited, for example, to a tea table. but to make myself clear, i'm not trying to relativize. some things are just repulsive, and if done in name of a certain culture, it doesn't make them better.

talking about an antique ivory or an ivory coming from an animal that died naturally, i don't feel like it should be destroyed, however one should be aware what it stands for, and the awful things that it symbolizes. so, i don't think i would put that on my tea table. anyway there is no reason to use it, it is all superficial.

ps. chip, you have my support.
blairswhitaker, thanks for sharing with us aspects of japanese culture, whatever they are.

[Chip]

My "zen" includes PA Dutch translation. I live in a quite different world, much simpler in its translations of the world around it ...

[blairswhitaker]

I'm curious to know, are those of you who are going to be boycotting E-Bay sellers are also going to be boycotting the artists in question as well? I mean the chaire comes from the artist with the zoge lid, it's not like the e-bay seller decided to put it on their as an afterthought. I know many of you own works by Hagi, shigaraki, Tanba, Seto, tokoname, and many other artists who sell Chaire with a zoge lid, most don't lathe the lid themselves, although some do, but none the less they present it with the lid as their final product.

[Chip]

I'm curious to know, are those of you who are going to be boycotting E-Bay sellers are also going to be boycotting the artists in question as well? I mean the chaire comes from the artist with the zoge lid, it's not like the e-bay seller decided to put it on their as an afterthought. I know many of you own works by Hagi, shigaraki, Tanba, Seto, tokoname, and many other artists who sell Chaire with a zoge lid, most don't lathe the lid themselves, although some do, but none the less they present it with the lid as their final product.

I have not seen chaire from any artisan whose work I have purchased. But I was not looking either. I will have to cross this bridge at the appropriate time.

The other seller also sells chaire on ebay.

Keep in mind, I have a fondness for Japan, her people, and it's culture. It is not like I plan a wholesale abandonment of Japan. And this is not easy for me, just as skipping Shizuoka teas for a year in the aftermath of the natural disasters was a difficult choice.

[Tead Off]

Why don't we expand this boycott to governments who meddle in global provocation, arms selling, backdoor deals, and general hypocrisy and greed? And, you all pay taxes to these governments, essentially supporting them and encouraging them to proceed with their global destruction. Which cause is more important?

No matter how many laws are put into place, they have never stopped those who want to pursue their own agendas. America has how many people incarcerated? They've got laws for everything. Maybe a radical change in your point of view should be considered. I think being pissed off is a way of life for many in the USA. Doesn't seem to do the world any good or change anything deeply.