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Feb 24th, '16, 13:18
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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by hopeofdawn » Feb 24th, '16, 13:18

steanze wrote: But if you consider "standard" the finely made artist pots, then yes in the West there are very few of those :) My impression is that the pots you see in the West, with a few exceptions (e.g. Tim of the mandarin tea room), are like the pots you see in China up to a mid-low level, after which there is a cut. To have a sense of the range: https://52tdx.taobao.com/
For instance these are not too bad :)
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1 ... 2256246035
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1 ... 9890440463

The difference in price is in part the quality of clay, but mostly the artisan's skills and reputation. Some pieces are basically sculptures and are evaluated for their artistic level and originality.
Wow, thank you for the links--those are truly beautiful pieces! They definitely make you want to just reach out and touch them. I admit, I'd love to be able to afford to collect artworks like that. But perhaps it's better for my wallet if I just admire them online and stick to more humble pots. :)

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by hobin » Feb 24th, '16, 14:38

I'm for traditional shapes. I particularly love si ting, chrysantemum, duo-zhi and duo-qiu.

Feb 24th, '16, 19:01
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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by LouPepe » Feb 24th, '16, 19:01

hobin wrote:I'm for traditional shapes. I particularly love si ting, chrysantemum, duo-zhi and duo-qiu.
I'm with you! Traditional shapes for me. And I also am a huge fan of Duo Qiu and Si Ting. I like my shuiping as well but not in the domineering way others seem to obsess about it.,

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by steanze » Feb 24th, '16, 21:48

heliospace wrote: What do you brew in the square zini?
Sorry, I just saw your question among the comments. I use my square zini for hongcha when I go for smoothness over aromatics.

https://www.instagram.com/p/0WrYX5l9lP/

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by Bok » Feb 24th, '16, 22:00

steanze wrote:
heliospace wrote: What do you brew in the square zini?
Sorry, I just saw your question among the comments. I use my square zini for hongcha when I go for smoothness over aromatics.

https://www.instagram.com/p/0WrYX5l9lP/
I also find black tea the most forgiving in terms of the vessel it is brewed in.
Especially the Taiwanese blacks taste good in almost anything you use.

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by kyarazen » Feb 24th, '16, 22:32

hmm... here to throw a few ideas around for discussion

1) i think decorations or not, as long as the tea ware is well understood through use, the brewer can calibrate the brewing to taste. this is not to say that classical shapes will give the best performance in tea brewing.. there is science in the shape, material and all that, but there is also control from the brewer in making decisions (leaf quantity, steep, temp from water dispense), mechanical agitation, and blahblahblah)

2) tea to be judged simply by the brew (in an obsessively compulsive way, that every steep/brew must be "perfect" due to one's subjective tastes), it is a narrow window, and potentially an egoistic pot hole

3) tea as an experience for the brewer, the performance of the pot, history of it, handling, ergonomics, material and the familiarity of the pot effects on tea with sufficient understanding for "full control" over the brewing process.

4) tea as a channel for "aesthetical experiences". recently i posted some videos from some of the "aesthetical tea movements" that had been going on in taiwan for a couple of decades. they can have spring themed tea sessions, pots having decorations of plum blossoms etc.

5) decorated pots are plenty. the poorer reputation for some of the decorated pots stems from the mass production from fake/incorrect materials, in an attempt to get tourists to buy a souvenir based on the looks (most tourists wouldnt even bother whether it is real yixing or not!)

but there are very lovely decorated pots, many of them are big. if you talk about small pots, in the 70s and earlier, mostly traditional geometric shapes. fancy decorations and shapes mostly were on large pots.

only into the 80s when artistic freedom was more available.. do we see small pots that are nicely decorated.

6) there are a lot of very high end decorated pots, beyond the price of the average consumer.. if you go to 紫砂新韻 on facebook and many other groups.. :)

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by steanze » Feb 24th, '16, 22:38

Bok wrote: I also find black tea the most forgiving in terms of the vessel it is brewed in.
Especially the Taiwanese blacks taste good in almost anything you use.
That's an interesting idea, I usually drink Chinese hongcha though. Did you notice any differences in taste between square and round teapots in your experience? I didn't notice any difference in my experience, but I don't have two pots of the same material one of which is square, so I cannot be sure that the difference in material did not make up for the difference in shape. I do think I used pretty good material as a comparison round pot though :)
I also cannot think of good reasons why a square teapot should do worse. It's true that a cube has a greater surface to volume ratio than a sphere - but a flat pot would be just like a square pot in this respect. I also don't see how the corners would pose any problems for most teas (pu-erh, yancha, hongcha) except perhaps gaoshan with its high rate of expansion. Were you mostly thinking of gaoshan or do you have some other ideas of how a square pot could pose problems?

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by steanze » Feb 24th, '16, 22:44

kyarazen wrote:
2) tea to be judged simply by the brew (in an obsessively compulsive way, that every steep/brew must be "perfect" due to one's subjective tastes), it is a narrow window, and potentially an egoistic pot hole

3) tea as an experience for the brewer, the performance of the pot, history of it, handling, ergonomics, material and the familiarity of the pot effects on tea with sufficient understanding for "full control" over the brewing process.

4) tea as a channel for "aesthetical experiences". recently i posted some videos from some of the "aesthetical tea movements" that had been going on in taiwan for a couple of decades. they can have spring themed tea sessions, pots having decorations of plum blossoms etc.
Yes.

Tea session inspired to the passing of time, with aged pu-erh :) https://www.instagram.com/p/038Tk1F9kC/

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by Bok » Feb 24th, '16, 23:42

steanze wrote:Were you mostly thinking of gaoshan or do you have some other ideas of how a square pot could pose problems?
Exactly, my main point of reference is gaoshan, which is what I drink the most. Those leaves can get stuck in corners when unfurling, preventing them to release their full potential.

I have even seen the practise of picking out the top leaves after a few rounds to give the leaves of towards the bottom mor room and push the tea for a few more brews. Presumption is that the top leaves as they have more contact with the water get depleted earlier than the rest.

So, your observation makes sense to me, unrolled tea leaves won’t need that much space to expand.

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by jayinhk » Feb 24th, '16, 23:52

When unloading my pots after gaoshan I often smell residual aroma at the bottom, when the top has no aroma. I may try moving the leaves around now! Interestingly my best gaoshan pot is a 45ml shuiping. Go figure! I was told that size pot was too small for expansion, but that little pot really brings the aroma out.
Last edited by jayinhk on Feb 24th, '16, 23:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by steanze » Feb 24th, '16, 23:53

Bok wrote: Exactly, my main point of reference is gaoshan, which is what I drink the most. Those leaves can get stuck in corners when unfurling, preventing them to release their full potential.
Makes sense.
Bok wrote: I have even seen the practise of picking out the top leaves after a few rounds to give the leaves of towards the bottom mor room and push the tea for a few more brews. Presumption is that the top leaves as they have more contact with the water get depleted earlier than the rest.
Interesting. I would have thought that the bottom leaves have more contact with the water. The top ones get hit by the stream when the water is hottest though. Something with which to experiment :)

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by Bok » Feb 24th, '16, 23:59

steanze wrote:[The top ones get hit by the stream when the water is hottest though. Something with which to experiment :)
That is what I meant by contact with water, did not explain myself clearly enough :mrgreen:

Note on that practise: This is not necessary if you have very good tea leaves which benefit from using fewer leaves. I do however use a tool to move the leaves a bit in the first 1 or 2 infusions until the leaves are settled.

Also a good way to save a brew when one has miscalculated and put too many leaves, better to throw away a few leaves than to drink a whole pot of not ideal tea :lol:

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by heliospace » Feb 25th, '16, 10:24

hobin wrote:I'm for traditional shapes. I particularly love si ting, chrysantemum, duo-zhi and duo-qiu.
Nice to find another person who enjoys the chrysanthemum. Here's one that previously was in my possession that I think is a very good old example. It is daoguang era and very large, and the lid hardly fit or I would have kept it around. A smaller (240cc) 90s version has replaced it, but not nearly as elegant looking, but still beautiful.
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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by heliospace » Feb 25th, '16, 10:28

steanze wrote:
heliospace wrote: What do you brew in the square zini?
Sorry, I just saw your question among the comments. I use my square zini for hongcha when I go for smoothness over aromatics.

https://www.instagram.com/p/0WrYX5l9lP/
I started my tea journey with hongcha, but not so much these days. Interesting to see others still enjoying a good cup of red tea. Nice looking square pot. Been a fan of that shape for a long time now.

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Re: Yixing Aesthetics: Traditional Vs. Modern?

by hobin » Feb 25th, '16, 13:01

heliospace wrote:
hobin wrote:I'm for traditional shapes. I particularly love si ting, chrysantemum, duo-zhi and duo-qiu.
Nice to find another person who enjoys the chrysanthemum. Here's one that previously was in my possession that I think is a very good old example. It is daoguang era and very large, and the lid hardly fit or I would have kept it around. A smaller (240cc) 90s version has replaced it, but not nearly as elegant looking, but still beautiful.
nice one! did you sell it?

here are my chrysanthemum.
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