Ivory, really?

[Chip]

We could discuss and rant on every world and political ill/PoV, but let's stay on topic, teaware and the use of IVORY. Do you anything to add, on topic? TeadOff, with your business in Thailand, I would think you would have something to contribute here. Perhaps you deal in ivory or own ivory?

"TeadOff," oddly, you seem to be the one who is PO'd, not the posters of this topic. Future political derailment will be deleted.

[Tead Off]

We could discuss and rant on every world and political ill/PoV, but let's stay on topic, teaware and the use of IVORY. Do you anything to add, on topic? TeadOff, with your business in Thailand, I would think you would have something to contribute here. Perhaps you deal in ivory or own ivory?

"TeadOff," oddly, you seem to be the one who is PO'd, not the posters of this topic. Future political derailment will be deleted.

Not at all PO'd. Just observing how worked up people get over things mostly that they have little control over.

Never have dealt in ivory. I was never that drawn to it. It's everywhere here in Asia. No one or country has ever stopped illicit trade. The Chinese drive the market for ivory. Until the demand for it stops, there's not much one can do. No need for righteous indignation, moral judgements, or finger pointing. None of these are going to make any difference. This world has never been nor ever will be 'perfect'. And, in another sense, it is absolutely perfect.

[bonescwa]

Comparing the use of ivory to the Holocaust or slavery, as was done earlier in this thread, should tell everyone what they need to know regarding the limits of this discussion forum in addressing serious issues.

[Chip]

TeadOff, thank you for your PoV, though I do not agree. Just because we cannot stop the illicit drug trade, does that mean we should give up and let all the drugs just flow without ... resistance? So too with the "illicit ivory trade," virtually none is which is legal since it was illegally poached.

Change can and will happen, hopefully not after all the elephants have been mercilessly slaughtered in the wild and are only in zoos with their tusks removed for their own protection.

As humans, we are often driven by a belief system that even our single voice can produce some kind of change. Sometimes we simply must do what we feel we can and must do because we believe it is right. Some of the greatest "revolutions" began with a single righteous indignation or single moral judgement or single finger-pointing.

Maybe a single or collective voice on an internet forum called TeaChat might possibly, maybe do something to provoke a change, even small.

Call this "righteous indignation, moral judging, finger pointing" ... but that does not change anything either ...

[Chip]

Comparing the use of ivory to the Holocaust or slavery, as was done earlier in this thread, should tell everyone what they need to know regarding the limits of this discussion forum in addressing serious issues.

Actually, I was not comparing to the "use of ivory" but the crimes committed to obtain the ivory, the so called elephant genocide.

Yes, a rather strong and extreme analogy, but I stand by it. And in this context it seems appropriate.

EDIT: added elephant genocide

[Chip]

... but yes, a simple discussion regarding ivory lids on chaire has ... gone beyond my original intent which was driven by the instantaneous shock brought when I suddenly realized ivory was being illegally traded right before our eyes.

This shock, for me has produced a degree of emotional outcry.

[debunix]

There are many things that are traditionally valued as beautiful, rare, and precious, that have important cultural meaning, but which the planet cannot support on a more widespread scale because there are simply too many of us on this planet to keep it up. Beautiful works in ivory are definitely one of them, something that has to be let go because the cost of it now is unsustainable and unsupportable.

[bonescwa]

Comparing the use of ivory to the Holocaust or slavery, as was done earlier in this thread, should tell everyone what they need to know regarding the limits of this discussion forum in addressing serious issues.

Actually, I was not comparing to the "use of ivory" but the crimes committed to obtain the ivory, the so called elephant genocide.

Yes, a rather strong and extreme analogy, but I stand by it. And in this context it seems appropriate.

EDIT: added elephant genocide

So you believe that the value of human lives is comparable to the value of elephant lives?

[rdl]

I re-state my question:

So given the discussion happening here...... should the huge number of museums that hold objects from Japan (and China) made of ivory and have them in their collections and often on display, no longer exhibit these works? And should they then destroy the pieces held in their collections?

best,

..................john

John,
I have no answer, just a few thoughts.
Who we are and what we have done as humankind certainly belongs in museums. So, no, collections with ivory should not be banned or burned. Even a "shrunken" head has a reason to be on view, but I would hope the reasoning for it and reaction to seeing it would be different than it once was a century or two before. Museums let us see this progress in outlook, development, in addition to all the other experiences we have at museums.
However, the progress we make as humankind, in all aspects and certainly in showing greater humanity towards everything that surrounds us, is the purpose for altering current views on ivory, and other things also but not to get off topic. And then one day in the future at a museum of Sociology near you, you'll see those activists and supporters who a long time ago changed the views and behavior of human beings.

John, one more point I was thinking of. I don't know if yours was a rhetorical question or not, but this idea of erasing the past, think French revolution or Cultural Revolution, seems never to accomplish anything except a later longing for that past. But a deeper meaning may be that we can't erase anything from the past and we will always want to confront it and use it in one way or another - that is for better or for worse - as is our nature, once the storm of revolution has passed.
So again, my vote is to leave the museum ivory right where it is.

[Tead Off]

... but yes, a simple discussion regarding ivory lids on chaire has ... gone beyond my original intent which was driven by the instantaneous shock brought when I suddenly realized ivory was being illegally traded right before our eyes.

This shock, for me has produced a degree of emotional outcry.

It will change when the demand for it is changed. As long as the Chinese keep demanding ivory, tiger parts, rhino horn, etc., the problem will exist. Take away the desire and need (drugs, too), and there is no market. Will this happen?

Here in Thailand, there are TV ads that try to awaken people's awareness of killing animals for their parts that feed this illicit trade. Greed, superstition, and insensitivity, all conspire to keep it going. But this happens on many levels of society in many other ways where people exploit anything and everything. This takes a deep awareness to see this in oneself before anything can change.

[Chip]

Comparing the use of ivory to the Holocaust or slavery, as was done earlier in this thread, should tell everyone what they need to know regarding the limits of this discussion forum in addressing serious issues.

Actually, I was not comparing to the "use of ivory" but the crimes committed to obtain the ivory, the so called elephant genocide.

Yes, a rather strong and extreme analogy, but I stand by it. And in this context it seems appropriate.

EDIT: added elephant genocide

So you believe that the value of human lives is comparable to the value of elephant lives?

I will reply to this diversion from the actual topic one time only since you appear to be misinterpreting or intent upon putting words in my mouth.

I am not worthy to place values upon lives of various species nor would I want to.

My analogy refers simply to a genocide and an exploitation. I can not match this up precisely with another species of animals, but man has repeatedly carried out such atrocities against man.

I am not saying one is equal to another. It is simply an analogy.

EDIT: However, ironically from a dollars and cents perspective, the value of an elephant may be higher than that of a typical human due to the value placed upon ivory. Just sayin' ...

[Chip]

... but yes, a simple discussion regarding ivory lids on chaire has ... gone beyond my original intent which was driven by the instantaneous shock brought when I suddenly realized ivory was being illegally traded right before our eyes.

This shock, for me has produced a degree of emotional outcry.

It will change when the demand for it is changed. As long as the Chinese keep demanding ivory, tiger parts, rhino horn, etc., the problem will exist. Take away the desire and need (drugs, too), and there is no market. Will this happen?

Here in Thailand, there are TV ads that try to awaken people's awareness of killing animals for their parts that feed this illicit trade. Greed, superstition, and insensitivity, all conspire to keep it going. But this happens on many levels of society in many other ways where people exploit anything and everything. This takes a deep awareness to see this in oneself before anything can change.

Points taken. Thank you also for the information regarding Thailand which I found to be very interesting.

[theredbaron]

The ivory debate is a bit more complicated, and i think that sometimes emotions run the debate more than rational thinking.

First of all, while i do support punishing the slaughter of elephants, as i am vehemently opposed to all trophy hunting, either by poachers or by trophy hunters, we also have to recognize that ivory is part of human art since the stone age.

I, for example, have several Thai amulets made of ivory and elephant bone. The particular monk who has made these amulets sourced the material from a skeleton of an elephant that has died of natural causes. Villagers have called the particular monk to expulse the spirit of this elephant which has haunted their village. As a reward, the monk was given the bones and tusks. I have no problem with owning these amulets.

Another source of perfectly legal ivory is mammoth ivory, which is sourced in Siberia, mostly accessible now through global warming in earth formerly covered in permafrost. This ivory looks very different from new elephant ivory, and no elephant was slaughtered for this material.

Instead of going all haywire when hearing the term "ivory", i would suggest to support legal trade of such "victimless" ivory, trying to persuade artisans working with ivory to only source such legal ivory, and this way decrease the demand for illegal ivory. Completely "banning" all ivory will only increase poaching and uncontrolled slaughter of elephants. Getting the trade out of the illegality and into the legally controlled space will protect animals.

[Fuut]

The particular monk who has made these amulets sourced the material from a skeleton of an elephant that has died of natural causes.

Good point, i was thinking about that this morning. Also this goes much further than just lids and amulets. Many Netsuke were made out of ivory and ivory carving in itself became an art at some point.

[debunix]

Instead of going all haywire when hearing the term "ivory", i would suggest to support legal trade of such "victimless" ivory, trying to persuade artisans working with ivory to only source such legal ivory, and this way decrease the demand for illegal ivory. Completely "banning" all ivory will only increase poaching and uncontrolled slaughter of elephants. Getting the trade out of the illegality and into the legally controlled space will protect animals.

The problem is that any trade in 'legal' or 'victimless' ivory supports the commercial value of ivory and that encourages illegal slaughter of ivory that will be passed off as 'victimless'.