Heini...Another Quest

[needaTEAcher]

Lol, I think there has been miscommunication somewhere. I am not claiming that any of the pots on this thread are factory one, or in any way related. I am writing about a totally different factory. The trio of pots posted a few slots above, to which I am referring, transliterates from Chinese into Korean into English (and poorly so I'd imagine) as something along the lines of Kyungjeong Do Pang (Do Pang is Korean for Ceramics Factory, as I understand). The black acorn pot is from a totally different factory. It is either new, or is under new contract from a Korean company. If anyone has information on either factory, based on the chop, I'd appreciate it (but can you mention that you recognized the chop, so as to make sure the information isn't based on my sub-par transliterations? I would not be surprised to learn that we are talking about different factories because I messed up! )

Also, the pots aren't being billed as such at all, Brandon. Actually, I have owned several of them for over a year before finding this out. It isn't something they normally mention, nor use as a selling point. Just the opposite in fact. They are from the first batch of teapots the company acquired, and most of the shop owners here are somewhat reluctant to let them go, as they are a pieces of company/cultural history. I found out all this because I was asking for more information about the company's history, and this information came up. The president of the company (which owns its own factory in Yixing, and either just bought a second or opened a contract with a second), is the one who told me that the kyungjeong pots came from a factory that was public until 8 or 10 years ago, but then became private-he also indicated that the quality dropped, though I am not sure if he meant the clay used or the craftsmanship.

Ultimately, I am trying to learn more about the factories, and this is a good a thread to follow as any, since I have access to solid sources. Any misinformation here is me screwing it up.

Finally, if anyone has any contacts on the ground in any of these factories in Yixing, please let me know. I'll be going in December/January, and I'd love to swing by--private, public, or even just ruins (I'll be contacting my resources, but the more contacts I can squeeze in the better my shot at getting in!). Thanks!

[MarshalN]

Lol, I think there has been miscommunication somewhere. I am not claiming that any of the pots on this thread are factory one, or in any way related. I am writing about a totally different factory. The trio of pots posted a few slots above, to which I am referring, transliterates from Chinese into Korean into English (and poorly so I'd imagine) as something along the lines of Kyungjeong Do Pang (Do Pang is Korean for Ceramics Factory, as I understand). The black acorn pot is from a totally different factory. It is either new, or is under new contract from a Korean company. If anyone has information on either factory, based on the chop, I'd appreciate it (but can you mention that you recognized the chop, so as to make sure the information isn't based on my sub-par transliterations? I would not be surprised to learn that we are talking about different factories because I messed up! )

Also, the pots aren't being billed as such at all, Brandon. Actually, I have owned several of them for over a year before finding this out. It isn't something they normally mention, nor use as a selling point. Just the opposite in fact. They are from the first batch of teapots the company acquired, and most of the shop owners here are somewhat reluctant to let them go, as they are a pieces of company/cultural history. I found out all this because I was asking for more information about the company's history, and this information came up. The president of the company (which owns its own factory in Yixing, and either just bought a second or opened a contract with a second), is the one who told me that the kyungjeong pots came from a factory that was public until 8 or 10 years ago, but then became private-he also indicated that the quality dropped, though I am not sure if he meant the clay used or the craftsmanship.

Ultimately, I am trying to learn more about the factories, and this is a good a thread to follow as any, since I have access to solid sources. Any misinformation here is me screwing it up.

Finally, if anyone has any contacts on the ground in any of these factories in Yixing, please let me know. I'll be going in December/January, and I'd love to swing by--private, public, or even just ruins (I'll be contacting my resources, but the more contacts I can squeeze in the better my shot at getting in!). Thanks!

These chops are for individuals, and not factories. Anyone who's telling you that these are factory chops are already telling you lies. The factory is the same as what your (slightly off) Korean transliteration is, whose website I linked you to earlier (but I take it you don't know Chinese). The style of the pots also look about right for these guys. They're no better than regular, run of the mill pots, ten years ago or now. People who tell you they were better and worth collecting are trying to unload the pots to you.

The only factory worth worrying about is the Yixing #1 factory, and preferably for goods from the 90s or earlier, which is not what these pots are. Your "solid" sources are feeding you non-solid information, I'm afraid. And if you are disinclined to believe anything you read here, then I think you should go back to your solid sources.

[needaTEAcher]

I seem to need to continue my efforts to be clearer with my communication. No one told me that these pots were worth collecting, or that they were special. No one was trying to sell me anything. My tea teacher is a friend as well, and he has given me more free tea and teapots, not to mention buying me dinner (in Korea the older person pays for social outings), than any profit he has possibly made off of me. I just really like them. I only mentioned them because I like them, and because I am curoius to learn more about the factory. There seem to be poor records kept through the years, and there seems to be a lot of misinformation sliding around the English speaking world about these kinds of things.

We often have different opinions MarshalN. I am OK with that, and I try to respect yours, without hostility or combative language. Any chance I could successfully request you to dial down the hostility on your end? You seem offended by me very often, even though I try hard not to offend (I do recognise that I was a bit of a smart @$$ earlier in this thread). I have spent a of of time with pots from many different companies and factories, and I find this particular batch of pots to be well made from good clay. Not art, but great functionality. It is just my opinion that they make good tea.

As per the chops, the one who told me it means the factory name was the assistant in the shop, and it is not at all unimaginable that she is wrong. I'll check this week with the folks upstairs. I was told that these pots were semi-hand made on an assembly line, with a different person making the handle and the top and connecting them, etc..., and that is why the chops read the factory. If she is wrong, it is a mistake, not an attempt to mislead or unload. As I mentioned above, the shop owners with this batch often won't even sell them. It has taken some digging to find a few here and there.

Can you translate the chops and post your translations for the name of the maker?

[the_economist]

EDIT: Marshal answered better than I could. See below.

[MarshalN]

We often have different opinions MarshalN. I am OK with that, and I try to respect yours, without hostility or combative language. Any chance I could successfully request you to dial down the hostility on your end? You seem offended by me very often, even though I try hard not to offend

I'm not so much offended by you but by your insistence that all your sources are correct, and all the viewpoints here, by myself or others, are wrong whenever they don't agree with your sources. If so, why are you asking questions? It seems like you have all the answers already, which is something I've already said before, but you've ignored that and continue to post your questions. Why, I don't know.

(I do recognise that I was a bit of a smart @$$ earlier in this thread).

Glad you noticed

I have heard differently from people on the ground in Yixing that I trust. Can you offer any source materials? Do you know when they opened?

The answer to your questions are all on the company's own webpage, which you haven't bothered to read, and will tell you that this company started as a public/private partnership with Yixing #1 factory, which was really the way it worked back in the 90s for individual artisans who have skills to get a cut of the work in Yixing instead of all working for crap wages in the state owned factory.

As per the chops, the one who told me it means the factory name was the assistant in the shop, and it is not at all unimaginable that she is wrong. I'll check this week with the folks upstairs. I was told that these pots were semi-hand made on an assembly line, with a different person making the handle and the top and connecting them, etc..., and that is why the chops read the factory. If she is wrong, it is a mistake, not an attempt to mislead or unload. As I mentioned above, the shop owners with this batch often won't even sell them. It has taken some digging to find a few here and there.

The bottom line is - you don't seem to really believe anything that's said here if it doesn't agree with what you've heard from your sources, whoever they are, when in fact they're just the plain truth, told to you by multiple people here. These are plainly chops with personal names on them. There's no way to dispute that, so your shop assistant is just wrong, period. I am Chinese, and so are a number of others on here. We're not trying to sell you anything. I can tell you right now pots from this brand are mass-produced and aren't really worth much - you can find ones from the 90s, even, for just $30-40 USD per pot, and they're very common, so the whole idea that these are rare in any way, shape, or form, is crazy. We're trying to save you from buying these half-truths and lies, and help you avoid paying tuition, but you seem quite happy doing it, so I guess I'm just wasting my time and energy. The factory chops have "Jingdian Taofang" stamped under the pot, not personal names. The factory chop looks like this (from Stephane's blog)

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4750 ... %20027.jpg

Can you translate the chops and post your translations for the name of the maker?

Zhang Yufen and Wu Chunxian. Neither of them are artisans of any real repute, so you can just think of them as regular Joes making pots.

[odarwin]

hi ineedateacher!

if you do like the pots from that factory called jing dian tao fang, which uses the chop marshaln posted, then i know that there is a shop there in KL that sells their pots with a different chop. i dont know what chop they use, but you will know that it comes from the same place just by looking at the pots itself. a teachater here told me about it when i asked about places to go when in KL for tea. in the end i didnt make the trip to the shop and just went to chinatown instead. i was told that the shop sells custom made teapots while they also carry jing dian tao fang pots... its just the same thing really as far as i can tell from your pictures... i mean the chop itself is a dead giveaway

but if you are starting to have doubts over there, then just buy from stephane! hahahaha

[needaTEAcher]

Thanks Oda! Do you know the name of the shop?

[odarwin]

Sorry bro, i forgot the name, it should be no problem asking around with people there in kl... Im not sure if its also the shop that distributes da yi in kl or near it... But on a different point, i hope this thread makes you rethink how you digest info from "reputable" sources there

[ImmortaliTEA]

Hmm, seems like you don't bother to click on links we post then?...How are you examining the clay? Are you using your hands? Your eyes? Are you looking at them through 30x magnifiers? ...Also, as I've already mentioned before, I think it is a red-herring to chase after different kinds of clay - they don't really make any meaningful difference in terms of the tea they brew, unless you're talking about high density zhuni, which behaves a little closer to porcelain. Otherwise, just use what pleases you and what seems to come out best for you. I think there isn't a lot more to say about pots than that.

MarshalN, it would appear that I have somehow offended you. Have I? If so, I apologize. Such was not my intention. Furthermore, I have, in fact, clicked on the links, and I responded to them earleir, noting my observation on pore size and asking for clarification. Your language before the link wasn't entirely clear to me (you mentioned pots with a red tint and then post your pot, and I wasn't sure if it was ment to be genuine or artificially colored-through a photo on a computer screen I couldn't really tell). I mean no disrespect; I just want to learn.

To answer your questions, when I examine pots I use my hands, my nose, sometimes a magnifying glass, hot water when possible, and of course I brew tea in it when I can. I prefer to either brew tea I know really well in it, or take it to one of my teachers, since I am very familier with how they brew, and their main stock of teas. I only buy nicer pots from someone I trust, or if someone who knows more than me comes along to help me navigate.

As per telling the difference between the pots by photos, for the most part, I try not to offer opinions are to quality or origin of clay when I can't physically examine it. I have read some amazing posts by people who can tell something is fake or real because of esoteric details (I just read an interesting post about a supposedly fake Jiang Rong[sp?!] teapot in which Tim displayed pretty solid knowledge of the artist and her trademark leaves). This kind of thing is rad, but I am not on that level..yet.

I do have a question about the Yixing clay in the middle of Europe. I thought it was illegal to take raw Yixing clay outside of China. I read that it is considered a national treasure, and so it must be used in China. Is this wrong? How on Earth did that clay make it to Europe? Why aren't people paying a fortune to have raw clay shipped to them all over the world?

Lastly, I understand your opinion on Yixing clay, and I firmly believe that everyone's opinion is, ultimately, valid (so long as they are based on experience and knowledge gained). But I, though I have less experience than you, have a different view, based on my own experiences. I have brewed a few of the same teas many, many times, with many different factors, and I have found that the type of clay, not to mention of course the many factors posted earlier pertaing to the brewing vessel (pot size, pot shape, wall thickness/evenness, quality of craftsmanship, age of clay, age of pot, etc...), not to mention the water, the way I feel before drinking, what tea I had prior, what kind of a mood the person making it is in, etc., influence the taste of the tea. I prefer some teas in Duanni, some teas in Zini, and, for some reason, I don't jive well with Hongni. I tend to get along well with Qingsuni too, and I do really enjoy a real Zhuni pot (older Zhuni...Modern Zhuni is nice too, but just not the same to me). But there is not a long of Heini or Lvni in Korea, so as I am learning a fair amout about the clays here, I haven't been able to learn much about these clays. Hence my "quests" across Asia and into the teachat room. Again, I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful here, nor am I trying to "win" anything, I am just vying for my seat at the table. I believe we are all due a certain level of respect, especially somewhere as awesome as Teachat, where we can come together and share our love of tea.

Toki: I will ask two of the three. The third is in Malaysia, and I won't see him until December. I try not to e-mail, because he is crazy busy. But I'll get back to you Sunday-ish on the clay/sand thing. I see both teachers tomorrow. Yaaaay for Saturday!

I would recommend giving Hong Ni another shot before you say you don't jive well with it. Most of the reputable and trusted sources here on teachat that I've seen seem to have a general consensus that Hong Ni is an all around type of clay that is good for pretty much any category of tea. We're most of the Hong Ni pots you tried of the higher fired variety. I personally love almost any type of quality Hong Ni I can get my hands on no matter the firing level, although, I have had some really wonderful experiences with Medium Fired Hong Ni specifically (especially with Wuyi Yan Cha or any type of aged oolong for that matter). But when it comes to the business with MarshalN I would have to agree with Tim in just from what I've seen as well as the general consensus on teachat that he is certainly more knowledgeable than most put together on this forum and I wouldn't be quick to take any other "Master's" word over his and I believe a great deal can be learned from him if you could just accept the possibility that some of your sources "could" be wrong and to have a much more open mind when it comes to yixing in general because there are thousands of variables as MarshalN said and so much information that is spread is simply either here-say or flat out made up. Not trying to imply hostility or any bad blood, but I believe MarshalN to be a very respected member of this community and I'm not sure you were aware of it by your method of (possibly unknowingly) showing a slight tinge of disrespect in the form of your "infallible" (for lack of a better word) attitude toward yixing and I say infallible because it seemed that whenever you came out with a post you were basically trying to tell us something you thought you already knew and when someone tried to tell you otherwise, even stating fact, (even someone as experienced as MarshalN) you would simply say something like "well that's your opinion, but mine is different from that" because it seemed as though you refused to ever believe you or your sources (masters/experts) could be wrong so any view that went against theirs you simply dismissed as someone elses opinion not valid of merit when in fact you will probably see in time that the "reputable sources" here on teachat are very well versed and always remember to do their homework. I apologize for this being such a long post and I hope it is not taken the wrong way because we are all here to learn but I do believe those more experienced "Tea Cognoscenti" or "Tea Elders" as I call them deserve an enormous amount of respect and humility for all the experiences they have gone through and all they have done to help us shorten our tuition with the vast amounts of glorious tea wisdom they have bestowed upon us over the years and I hope you understand what I am getting at here needaTEAcher! No hard feelings. I just hope you can have more trust in the community of tea chatters in the future, especially those who have been in this game for many years and see it from an entirely different perspective that we probably won't understand for years to come in the same way a Kung fu Sifu sees his respective style in a completely different perspective than any of his students and thereby has a base of knowledge that is incomprehensible to those who haven't had as much experience!

[hopeofdawn]

I debated for a while about whether to weigh in on this, but--

Speaking only as a bystander/mostly passive reader of these threads, I would have to say that for the most part I've found IneedaTEAcher's posts to be very respectful and with very little of the arrogance that other people seem to be ascribing to them. If anything, they seem to mostly written in the spirit of someone who is doing his best to sift through all the frequently-contradictory information given to him about yixing. In contrast, I find MarshalN and TIM's answers often to be brusque at best, and occasionally condescending at worst. And while I'm sure both of them have forgotten more about yixing than most of us will ever know, and I'm sympathetic to the frustration they must feel when they see the same misinformation floating around repeatedly ... I also think this can set a hostile tone for anyone who dares to ask questions about yixing in general or their pots in specific here on Teachat.

Anyway, that's just my two cents--take it for what it's worth. *shrugs and wanders off*

[Drax]

Speaking only as a bystander/mostly passive reader of these threads, I would have to say that for the most part I've found IneedaTEAcher's posts to be very respectful and with very little of the arrogance that other people seem to be ascribing to them. If anything, they seem to mostly written in the spirit of someone who is doing his best to sift through all the frequently-contradictory information given to him about yixing. In contrast, I find MarshalN and TIM's answers often to be brusque at best, and occasionally condescending at worst. And while I'm sure both of them have forgotten more about yixing than most of us will ever know, and I'm sympathetic to the frustration they must feel when they see the same misinformation floating around repeatedly ... I also think this can set a hostile tone for anyone who dares to ask questions about yixing in general or their pots in specific here on Teachat.

+1 on all accounts.

You're not the only one. Thank you for stating so clearly what I was having trouble articulating.

[MarshalN]

I debated for a while about whether to weigh in on this, but--

Speaking only as a bystander/mostly passive reader of these threads, I would have to say that for the most part I've found IneedaTEAcher's posts to be very respectful and with very little of the arrogance that other people seem to be ascribing to them. If anything, they seem to mostly written in the spirit of someone who is doing his best to sift through all the frequently-contradictory information given to him about yixing. In contrast, I find MarshalN and TIM's answers often to be brusque at best, and occasionally condescending at worst. And while I'm sure both of them have forgotten more about yixing than most of us will ever know, and I'm sympathetic to the frustration they must feel when they see the same misinformation floating around repeatedly ... I also think this can set a hostile tone for anyone who dares to ask questions about yixing in general or their pots in specific here on Teachat.

Anyway, that's just my two cents--take it for what it's worth. *shrugs and wanders off*

I can see why I have come across that way in this thread, and yes, it's not a good tone to use.

I do have a almost pathological hatred of lies and sales pitches designed to lure unsuspecting people into buying things they shouldn't be buying, often for prices that they shouldn't be paying. I don't claim to know yixing clay like the potters do, but I do know tea salespeople, and what I've seen repeated ad hominen in this thread are those very same lies and snake oil salesmen tales that I've encountered in the past, sometimes with me as the victim in my early days of trying to figure out what's what. I'm sure I still make lots of mistakes, but I'm trying to avoid them, and I'll try to help others avoid them too, if possible.

So yes, a certain amount of frustration has indeed set in because, quite frankly, the OP's unwillingness to entertain contrarian opinions is frustrating for me personally. Which is why earlier on I decided not to jump back into this thread and let it run its course, since I don't seem to be getting my point across at all and am not interested in being mocked while doing it. When some clearly incorrect information popped up regarding the provenance of these pots, I jumped back in offering a bit of info that, if I don't post about it, it might just never get resolved and linger. Well, that's where we are now, I suppose.

[Drax]

I do have a almost pathological hatred of lies and sales pitches designed to lure unsuspecting people into buying things they shouldn't be buying, often for prices that they shouldn't be paying. I don't claim to know yixing clay like the potters do, but I do know tea salespeople, and what I've seen repeated ad hominen in this thread are those very same lies and snake oil salesmen tales that I've encountered in the past, sometimes with me as the victim in my early days of trying to figure out what's what. I'm sure I still make lots of mistakes, but I'm trying to avoid them, and I'll try to help others avoid them too, if possible.

I really appreciate this sentiment, because I think I have the same passion when it comes to the chemistry-side of tea, which is also something where a lot of disinformation exists.

I also appreciate the dialogue that happens -- at least, when it focuses on the topic -- because I learn a lot, and this area is clearly filled with pitfalls (and as you and TIM have demonstrated time and time again, something that requires more than a visual inspection).

[needaTEAcher]

Thanks for the kind thoughts Hopeofdawn and Drax. I very much appreciate it.

Odarwin, I think the name of the shop in KL is Tacha. I should have connected that earlier! I went there in March and bought two pots, one of them a modern zhuni that I and another teachatter have posted in the showoff section. The solo pot first posted here is the other. They specialize in high-end, young sheng (too pricey for me to afford!). Pretty solid stuff. It is about 5 minutes from JDX, the official Dayi distributor in Malaysia (as I have been informed). I have cards for both if anyone is interested.

________________________________________________________________

I looked back over all the posts in the thread several times, and I humbly request others to do the same before judging me too harshly. I'm doing my best here. That said, I want to apologize to everyone for the part I have played in sending this thread negative. This isn't why I love tea, and this isn't my Cha Tao.

My final thoughts are

1-I feel like my intentions and my knowledge have been consistently misinterpreted. Again, I apologize for my lack of clear communication, and take responsibility for my inability to get the point across. I am truly sad and a little ashamed to see how my wonderful teachers here in Korea have been dragged through the mud on my account. As I have mentioned earlier in the thread, I think the misinformation I have quoted is not from maliciousness or lies on the part of my teachers, but language barrier issues and my own confusion. The people here have shown me nothing but kindness and generosity, and their love and knowledge of puerh, zisha, and traditional Korean ceramics far outstrips that of anyone I have met in my travels or in real life. Many of my teachers here have been in the industry for multiple decades. If anyone comes to Seoul, PM me and I will set up an introduction.

2-As far as the issues about jing dian tao fang, I have not been obstinately sticking to my guns in an attempt to demean or discredit teachat, nor any members therein. I have been trying to better understand all of this information; I am slow to absorb new ideas until I understand the situation better. I consider this to be be my responsibility as a consumer. In my experience, categorizations for anything, let alone something as complex as business, vary greatly from country to country, and especially across continents. So for example I might learn A in Korea, B in China, and C in the USA, and they might seem contradictory, they might in fact all be true, just different facets of truth under different definitions and terminology. I have been trying to get to the bottom of it all in as inclusive a manner as possible. I want to make sure that when I revamp my understanding, I revamp it in a more accurate direction. In terms of the specific pots I've posted, all I can say is what I have seen and tasted. I apologize for the offense my opinions of these pots has caused, and I will not continue to post my opinions here. If anyone is curious to know my thoughts on any of my pots (I have about 20 or 25 zisha pieces, 9 of which are from jing dian tao fang), send a PM. I love talking about this stuff!

3-I mean and have meant no disrespect. As a fellow martial artist, Immortal, I appreciate and invest in the idea that those with more knowledge should be given respect. I will strive to better control my tongue and to show greater respect in the future, both on and offline.

In any case, I think the time has come for me to bow out of this discussion. I want to keep learning, but I don't think that asking more questions on this thread will be productive. Please don't let my exit stop any discussion. We are all here to learn and to share the benefits of our collective experiences.

I look forward to future threads, with fresh starts. Thank you all for your participation and personal investment, and thank you all for your continued teachings.

[chrl42]

The first Heini was late-Qing creation. It was done by removing oxygen in a klin (reduction method in English?). During late-Qing~ROC, these black-colored Yixings weren't few.

Second Heini appeared from Factory-1, the color came from manganese/cobalt oxide powder.

There is also a natural clay called 'Wu Ni'. Back then it was considered 'inferior' Yixing clay, seldom used. But this clay gets blackish when fired..some potters use Wu Ni making pots as well.