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Re: Ivory, really?

by William » Dec 7th, '14, 18:09

debunix wrote: The problem is that any trade in 'legal' or 'victimless' ivory supports the commercial value of ivory and that encourages illegal slaughter of ivory that will be passed off as 'victimless'.
Let's start from a point that I believe is certain and sure, the ivory trade is insuppressible due to the HUGE demand.
Now, in your opinion makes more sense carrying on a struggle that, always in my opinion, will never lead anywhere (due to the HUGE demand), or encourage those who use legally ivory that does not involve any kind of violence on any animal, e.g. mammut's ivory from Siberia and North America.

What I mean is, in an ideal world it would be nice that there was no violence done to any animal, but we all not live in a ideal world.

If money has to be made, since this trade generates tons of money, better to encourage alternative forms of use of ivory which did not involve violence/abuse, instead of a hypocritical and useless struggle that, always in my opinion, will never and ever lead to any results now or in 50 years.

Regards.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by Chip » Dec 7th, '14, 19:31

debunix wrote:
theredbaron wrote: Instead of going all haywire when hearing the term "ivory", i would suggest to support legal trade of such "victimless" ivory, trying to persuade artisans working with ivory to only source such legal ivory, and this way decrease the demand for illegal ivory. Completely "banning" all ivory will only increase poaching and uncontrolled slaughter of elephants. Getting the trade out of the illegality and into the legally controlled space will protect animals.
The problem is that any trade in 'legal' or 'victimless' ivory supports the commercial value of ivory and that encourages illegal slaughter of ivory that will be passed off as 'victimless'.
My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately few poachers make such an idealistic approach impractical. It is virtually impossible to get around this problem.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by ethan » Dec 7th, '14, 20:07

I think there is a possibility of changing how people act. Does a white top made of anything, really go well w/ the colors of ceramic work below it? W/o ivory denoting status & wealth or whatever, would such a lid be put on top of ceramic? It's just to show off, perhaps. At some point a purchase of new ivory may denote callous indifference to the slaughter of elephants to too many people who care about elephants for ivory to be a possession to use to garner respect. Unfortunately, by the time that happens there will be no tea, as the world's population of 20 billion people needs to have all arable land used to grow food.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by theredbaron » Dec 7th, '14, 23:45

debunix wrote:
theredbaron wrote: Instead of going all haywire when hearing the term "ivory", i would suggest to support legal trade of such "victimless" ivory, trying to persuade artisans working with ivory to only source such legal ivory, and this way decrease the demand for illegal ivory. Completely "banning" all ivory will only increase poaching and uncontrolled slaughter of elephants. Getting the trade out of the illegality and into the legally controlled space will protect animals.
The problem is that any trade in 'legal' or 'victimless' ivory supports the commercial value of ivory and that encourages illegal slaughter of ivory that will be passed off as 'victimless'.

That is neither rational nor realistic. The commercial value of Ivory is driven by demand.

A complete ban pauses many problems as well, and even furthers poaching and the illegal trade. You just cannot stop something with a simple legislation and not the necessary tools to enforce the legislation when a huge demand exists (see the great success in the drug wars).

Furthermore, it takes people's livelihoods away. As an example, in India, due to the ban, many former Ivory carvers were forced to move to sandalwood, another endangered species (which though hasn't grabbed international emotive attention as elephants have).

It always sounds very nice to sit in a western home, in countries where nobody needs to starve to death, where there is no threat of war. Most ivory poaching takes place in countries where there is real poverty, where there are wars and civil unrest, and where people do not have the luxury of choice people in the west have. If your family would be threatened by poverty, when you don't have enough money put dinner on your table or to send your children to school, what would you do?

Even the simple act of "creating awareness" can be a problem. While primary needs are covered where you are sitting, and you have basic security, where i am sitting, far more pressing matters than ivory keep me busy. When you have friends that get imprisoned or have to choose exile for simply stating their political views, where at times people get tortured and killed for the same, matters such as Ivory take a backseat.

Is not as simple as it sounds from the comfort of a developed country. Ivory and many other issues related to endangered species or the environment are highly complex matters. That means that solutions have to be found that respond to the multi-layered issues involved.

One part of the solution is discerning between legal and illegal ivory. Another part of legal ivory can be obtained by selective hunting in areas where the elephant population has recuperated already. I am sure now that people will scream now. But face it, most humans are carnivores and eat meat, and use leather. Is killing a cow or a pig - very intelligent and sensitive species - morally any better than killing an elephant? I don't think so.

The aim should not be to simply be morally outraged, and propose knee jerk reactions, but to find realistic solutions that species do not go extinct, while at the same time not to contribute more to poverty, which then in turn will contribute to the extinction of species and the destruction of the environment.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by kyarazen » Dec 8th, '14, 00:04

ethan wrote:I think there is a possibility of changing how people act. Does a white top made of anything, really go well w/ the colors of ceramic work below it? W/o ivory denoting status & wealth or whatever, would such a lid be put on top of ceramic? It's just to show off, perhaps. At some point a purchase of new ivory may denote callous indifference to the slaughter of elephants to too many people who care about elephants for ivory to be a possession to use to garner respect. Unfortunately, by the time that happens there will be no tea, as the world's population of 20 billion people needs to have all arable land used to grow food.
the boycott of the west on ivory, will probably not improve anything, i assume, as the west is a place of interest nor demand for ivory, people did not appreciate the material nor its aesthetic. perhaps that will be some that came into possession of the real ivory material without knowing it, there is no desire nor demand.

all arable land to grow food will be scary, but i think before that happens the fuel crisis will kick in, after all we are milking the earth for its fossil fuels, derived from already extinct buried creatures.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by kyarazen » Dec 8th, '14, 00:09

theredbaron wrote: I, for example, have several Thai amulets made of ivory and elephant bone. The particular monk who has made these amulets sourced the material from a skeleton of an elephant that has died of natural causes. Villagers have called the particular monk to expulse the spirit of this elephant which has haunted their village. As a reward, the monk was given the bones and tusks. I have no problem with owning these amulets.
kruba dhammamuni/wat suanpa?

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Re: Ivory, really?

by theredbaron » Dec 8th, '14, 01:15

kyarazen wrote:
theredbaron wrote: I, for example, have several Thai amulets made of ivory and elephant bone. The particular monk who has made these amulets sourced the material from a skeleton of an elephant that has died of natural causes. Villagers have called the particular monk to expulse the spirit of this elephant which has haunted their village. As a reward, the monk was given the bones and tusks. I have no problem with owning these amulets.
kruba dhammamuni/wat suanpa?
:)

No, he has actually lost of lot of followers when the story made the rounds that an elephant was killed for for his amulets. No idea if it's true though.

The ones i have are from Pha Ajan O. I find him the nowadays maybe most creative monk in the art of amulet making.

I also have an older Khun Paen amulet made from ivory one that a brother of my wife found in an abandoned shack in the rice fields amidst a whole bunch of amulets and gave to me.

Here is a small, now sold out, "Mae E Boe", or "Mae Sethi" from Pha Ajan O, about 7 cm high, carved from elephant bone:
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Re: Ivory, really?

by kyarazen » Dec 8th, '14, 01:21

theredbaron wrote: :)

No, he has actually lost of lot of followers when the story made the rounds that an elephant was killed for for his amulets. No idea if it's true though.
indeed, national geographic covered it too.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -religion/

but i suppose it could be better that teachat remain secular in discussion.

interesting krueng rang you have.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by theredbaron » Dec 8th, '14, 01:26

kyarazen wrote:

interesting krueng rang you have.

I have quite a large collection.

As an aside - under the military rule now the army puts a lot of pressure on monks not to issue such kueang krang, especially with sexual depictions, anymore. It's part of their 'social order' campaign...

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Re: Ivory, really?

by JBaymore » Dec 8th, '14, 08:35

ethan wrote:Does a white top made of anything, really go well w/ the colors of ceramic work below it?
Actually... yes. It does. In design language it is called "contrast". And can also be dealing with "texture". And of course "color". Juxtaposing dissimilar materials is common in ceramic history. It can help set off the rest of the work.

Because I am gaijin (foreigner) in Japan,....... somewhat I am not as "bound" by the various 'rules' as Japanese potters are. In fact..... only very "open" minded Japanese tea people would even use my work in actual Chaji. So I still have a tad left of my "Gaijin License" when it comes to making Chadogu.

Most of my chaire utilize porcelain lids (as in this one below). Some use clay lids...... some use wood with lacquer.
Baymore_John_Chaire-PorcealinLid-OribeGlaze-Woodfired.jpg
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best,

..............john

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Re: Ivory, really?

by blairswhitaker » Dec 8th, '14, 09:00

JBaymore wrote:
ethan wrote:Does a white top made of anything, really go well w/ the colors of ceramic work below it?
Actually... yes. It does. In design language it is called "contrast". And can also be dealing with "texture". And of course "color". Juxtaposing dissimilar materials is common in ceramic history. It can help set off the rest of the work.

Because I am gaijin (foreigner) in Japan,....... somewhat I am not as "bound" by the various 'rules' as Japanese potters are. In fact..... only very "open" minded Japanese tea people would even use my work in actual Chaji. So I still have a tad left of my "Gaijin License" when it comes to making Chadogu.

Most of my chaire utilize porcelain lids (as in this one below). Some use clay lids...... some use wood with lacquer.
Baymore_John_Chaire-PorcealinLid-OribeGlaze-Woodfired.jpg
best,

..............john
Great looking piece John, is this based on a Hyotan karamono by any chance? the futa looks very karamono with the raised knob.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by Chip » Dec 8th, '14, 09:03

theredbaron wrote:
debunix wrote:
theredbaron wrote: Instead of going all haywire when hearing the term "ivory", i would suggest to support legal trade of such "victimless" ivory, trying to persuade artisans working with ivory to only source such legal ivory, and this way decrease the demand for illegal ivory. Completely "banning" all ivory will only increase poaching and uncontrolled slaughter of elephants. Getting the trade out of the illegality and into the legally controlled space will protect animals.
The problem is that any trade in 'legal' or 'victimless' ivory supports the commercial value of ivory and that encourages illegal slaughter of ivory that will be passed off as 'victimless'.

That is neither rational nor realistic. The commercial value of Ivory is driven by demand.

A complete ban pauses many problems as well, and even furthers poaching and the illegal trade. You just cannot stop something with a simple legislation and not the necessary tools to enforce the legislation when a huge demand exists (see the great success in the drug wars).

Furthermore, it takes people's livelihoods away. As an example, in India, due to the ban, many former Ivory carvers were forced to move to sandalwood, another endangered species (which though hasn't grabbed international emotive attention as elephants have).

It always sounds very nice to sit in a western home, in countries where nobody needs to starve to death, where there is no threat of war. Most ivory poaching takes place in countries where there is real poverty, where there are wars and civil unrest, and where people do not have the luxury of choice people in the west have. If your family would be threatened by poverty, when you don't have enough money put dinner on your table or to send your children to school, what would you do?

Even the simple act of "creating awareness" can be a problem. While primary needs are covered where you are sitting, and you have basic security, where i am sitting, far more pressing matters than ivory keep me busy. When you have friends that get imprisoned or have to choose exile for simply stating their political views, where at times people get tortured and killed for the same, matters such as Ivory take a backseat.

Is not as simple as it sounds from the comfort of a developed country. Ivory and many other issues related to endangered species or the environment are highly complex matters. That means that solutions have to be found that respond to the multi-layered issues involved.

One part of the solution is discerning between legal and illegal ivory. Another part of legal ivory can be obtained by selective hunting in areas where the elephant population has recuperated already. I am sure now that people will scream now. But face it, most humans are carnivores and eat meat, and use leather. Is killing a cow or a pig - very intelligent and sensitive species - morally any better than killing an elephant? I don't think so.

The aim should not be to simply be morally outraged, and propose knee jerk reactions, but to find realistic solutions that species do not go extinct, while at the same time not to contribute more to poverty, which then in turn will contribute to the extinction of species and the destruction of the environment.
Really, you equate a cow harvest with an elephant poaching because we are carnivores? Generally, when a cow is harvested, they use virtually everything. The meat is eaten, the hide is used, etc. When a poacher kills an elephant, they take the tusks and leave the carcass to rot. How is this similar?

Considering you collect ivory and have quite a large collection, I find your arguments to be a self serving justification.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by blairswhitaker » Dec 8th, '14, 09:10

also was having a talk during Jitsugi today with one of my sensei's based on the "emotion" inspired by this thread, and he was saying that Richard Milgrim has been using a lot of exotic chinese hardwoods to get around the use of Zoge. I haven't seen any of Milgrims chaire in person, but we do employ some of his hana-ire and chawan in our keiko dogu, and a lot of his work has been given Iemoto, Zabosai-sama's seal, and even gomei.... So he gets a fair bit of license while receiving acceptance.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by theredbaron » Dec 8th, '14, 09:43

Chip wrote: Really, you equate a cow harvest with an elephant poaching because we are carnivores? Generally, when a cow is harvested, they use virtually everything. The meat is eaten, the hide is used, etc. When a poacher kills an elephant, they take the tusks and leave the carcass to rot. How is this similar?

Considering you collect ivory and have quite a large collection, I find your arguments to be a self serving justification.

See, people going all emotional when hearing "ivory", and forgetting every reason... :?

No, i do not collect ivory. I have a large collection of "Krong Krang", also called "Mahasanae", which can be translated as "charm amulets". They are mostly made of mixtures of earth, herbs, powdered medicinal vines, wood and occasionally human bone. A very few i own are made of ivory or elephant bone, sourced, as i said, from a carcass that has died of natural causes.

Before accusing me of something that simply isn't true, please ask and understand first what we are talking about.

And secondly, just because almost all parts of a cow get used makes killing a cow morally not one bit better than killing any other animal. Killing is killing - a life has been extinguished.

And back to the points i have made, which you have managed to completely ignore, my question to you is: are you just interested in being morally outraged, or are you interested into learning what preservation of species actually entails and how many complex issues such endeavors actually involve?

Part of that is you simply cannot separate issues such as human poverty as they are related to issues such as ivory. Creating sustainable preservation of species needs education and not simple outrage. Cultural issues play a large role as well. You may deem cultures that have a long history of ivory as "inferior", or "unenlightened", but such attitudes will never create any sort of awareness that is needed - it will just piss people off.

What needs to be done is finding solutions that entail for all sides acceptable compromises. That means the creation of markets of legal ivory from sustainable sources, be that mammoth ivory, or ivory from elephant carcasses that died of natural causes, or elephants that were selective and in controlled way hunted in areas where elephant herds have recuperated from the mass slaughter that has taken place before. This also means policies of poverty reduction, so that people do not have to resort to illegal poaching to feed their families. Also selling less weapons in the murky world market that feed wars in impoverished nations may help there too...

It also entails awareness building in the markets such as China and Japan, working with the governments of these countries, bring artisans working with ivory to source their material in legal markets. Ivory is an incredibly beautiful material that has been used in human art since the stone age. But that does not mean that elephants have to go extinct to obtain that material.

The demand and use of ivory is not going away, regardless what the US or Europe may say. It is simple as that. Either you can accept that fact, and try to work on realistic solutions before Elephants (and other species) are extinct, or you are just morally outraged, keep the illegal market running as it is, and this way contribute to the extinction of a species.


Also, i sense a lot of hypocrisy here in this discussion. Everybody here appreciates tea ware in wood fired kilns. That though does impact the environment as well. The amount of trees that have to be cut for a firing is quite enormous, and lets not talk about the carbon emissions...

Lets start now boycotting potters that do not use gas or electric kilns... :wink:
Last edited by theredbaron on Dec 8th, '14, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by theredbaron » Dec 8th, '14, 09:45

blairswhitaker wrote:also was having a talk during Jitsugi today with one of my sensei's based on the "emotion" inspired by this thread, and he was saying that Richard Milgrim has been using a lot of exotic chinese hardwoods to get around the use of Zoge. I haven't seen any of Milgrims chaire in person, but we do employ some of his hana-ire and chawan in our keiko dogu, and a lot of his work has been given Iemoto, Zabosai-sama's seal, and even gomei.... So he gets a fair bit of license while receiving acceptance.

By the way, a lot of those exotic hardwoods come from equally endangered species, some even closer to extinction than African elephants. But of course trees are not as cute as elephants...

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