Questions on Zhuni

[kyarazen]

Yes I was wondering if it might not be the era claimed. I wasn't interested in purchasing it, these discussions have just piqued my curiosity.

It is a gorgeous pot though! If it was a couple hundred dollars less wouldn't care what era it was from

it is not the era claimed, a couple hundred dollars would be a fair price for a nice pot like this

[kyarazen]

your point being? you can simply just ignore and disregard what i write in this forum.

there are already people whom are unhappy with me with information "leakage". there are some that are even "badmouthing" me in the background and assume that i do not know about it (the local pot community is small, and there are ears everywhere). it is really a shame to see all these "backstabbing" or 小人的行为, ruins the spirit and passion of real collecting and enjoying art.

guided, hands on is the best and fastest way. it is the same as qing hua, long quan, dehua, wenge 7501 etc. you can consider it a "master" to "disciple" type of privileged transmission, but who would want to teach you? to them, the pie is too small, more people who know, means more competition in collecting. of course, until you meet the real collectors, whom have transcended all these "competitions", had seen it all, and are at the ripe old age worrying that they may not get a chance to pass on their knowledge. to them, I'm like a sponge, absorbing everything single thing, but i dont have much free time to get serious with them except only in the genres of my own interest. i have long transcended "competitive" collecting, there's no need to own everything, not in cartloads, boxes, shiploads, container loads.

What we really need on this forum are some Yixing potters who actually know what they're talking about regarding clays, their preparation and curing, present availability, and issues of creating pots with them. Having an intellectual understanding of names, categories, etc., doesn't really help a collector except in conversation. The hands-on aspect of Yixing is not teachable through a forum like this. I'm not suggesting that the conversation should stop, just pointing to its inherent limitations and the false assumptions that many people reading this are likely to make. The knowledge of clays has to translate to the identification of what they look like as a teapot. It can only happen if someone is lucky enough to be around the actual goods and shown what the differences and issues are. You can't really learn this stuff through pictures. You only learn to guess better than you did when you began. It's a tough road without having someone take you by the hand.

[Tead Off]

No, kyarazen. Don't misinterpret what I said. You are one of the lucky ones who have been guided into this field. Most of the readers of this forum are just collecting names and concepts about Yixing that they can't verify out in the field. Plus, all the sharks are waiting for them in these waters.

The other point you make about the reluctance of those who 'know' to impart real knowledge to others is a problem in all areas of collecting in Asia. A lot of ego and greed are at the bottom of it. To find real collectors who are willing to share is not easy. Perhaps the Chinese population in Singapore has a more open mind to communication and sharing. This is certainly not so in HK and BKK.

[hobin]

from the start of Factory 1 in '58, they never used zhuni at all

If factory 1 didn't use zhuni, and other factories weren't around yet, who made this pot?
http://www.sampletea.com/product/1970s- ... eapot-60ml

In my limited experience I would say this is a '90 pot in the style of older zhunis, expressely made for the taiwanese market. this writing is typical of these pot, looks like it was made with a tinier metal tool (old pots have chunkier characters - also they usually have 8 characters in two rows)

[chrl42]

from the start of Factory 1 in '58, they never used zhuni at all

If factory 1 didn't use zhuni, and other factories weren't around yet, who made this pot?
http://www.sampletea.com/product/1970s- ... eapot-60ml

looks like I've seen a similar thing on Taobao before..

[Tead Off]

Some months ago, a dealer here in Bangkok showed me a group of pots left on consignment to him from a seller in Taiwan. All pots were zhuni-like clay, single hole, with either zhongguo seals or inscriptions on bottom. He told me all were recently made. It was very hard to distinguish these from 90's made pots copying older styles except they looked brand new. It is so easy to be fooled or led to believe something is what it isn't in this field.

[chrl42]

When would modem zhuni have come onto the scene?

Dr Lu's article indicates imitations are made since 80s, from what I know Zhuni stuffs mainly came onto the scene by 90s, by demand from Taiwan..but during these days many 'nameless' Zhuni are actually quite good in quality and hand-made..and these potters made their name later on with their pots price gone up.

But that's not to imply all 90s Zhuni and so-called 90s Zhuni on the market, most of them are actually after-2000 stuffs, and being produced to these days even (like Chen Tu-gen family), original products all should be in Taiwan or came from Taiwan.

On the clay, Xiaomeiyao (mined since 50s), Hufu, Huanglongshan etc made up these new Zhuni..Zhaozhuang...doubtful so..as this clay quite ran out by the ROC...

[BW85]

When would modem zhuni have come onto the scene?

Dr Lu's article indicates imitations are made since 80s, from what I know Zhuni stuffs mainly came onto the scene by 90s, by demand from Taiwan..but during these days many 'nameless' Zhuni are actually quite good in quality and hand-made..and these potters made their name later on with their pots price gone up.

But that's not to imply all 90s Zhuni and so-called 90s Zhuni on the market, most of them are actually after-2000 stuffs, and being produced to these days even (like Chen Tu-gen family), original products all should be in Taiwan or came from Taiwan.

On the clay, Xiaomeiyao (mined since 50s), Hufu, Huanglongshan etc made up these new Zhuni..Zhaozhuang...doubtful so..as this clay quite ran out by the ROC...

Was zhuni (modern, of course) still mined during the 60's through 70's even though the factories weren't using it? There is a piece of information floating around the internet that one of the zhuni mines dried up in mid 70's, meaning it was either mined and hoarded.. or false information

[chrl42]

When would modem zhuni have come onto the scene?

Dr Lu's article indicates imitations are made since 80s, from what I know Zhuni stuffs mainly came onto the scene by 90s, by demand from Taiwan..but during these days many 'nameless' Zhuni are actually quite good in quality and hand-made..and these potters made their name later on with their pots price gone up.

But that's not to imply all 90s Zhuni and so-called 90s Zhuni on the market, most of them are actually after-2000 stuffs, and being produced to these days even (like Chen Tu-gen family), original products all should be in Taiwan or came from Taiwan.

On the clay, Xiaomeiyao (mined since 50s), Hufu, Huanglongshan etc made up these new Zhuni..Zhaozhuang...doubtful so..as this clay quite ran out by the ROC...

Was zhuni (modern, of course) still mined during the 60's through 70's even though the factories weren't using it? There is a piece of information floating around the internet that one of the zhuni mines dried up in mid 70's, meaning it was either mined and hoarded.. or false information

According to Yixing Zisha Clay by Mr.Zhu, Xiao Mei Yao has 2 major mines, both were mined since 50s, I think mid-70s dried up mine could be Zhaozhuang mine..perhaps the Hongni mine...Zhaozhuang Zhuni was hardly seen by late-ROC period I think..

Not just scarcity, Zhuni is quite delicate and shrinks high that leads to a failure of firing..in other words, it's not suitable for mass production, I think both reasons are why Factory-1 didn't use Zhuni.

[xiaobai]

When would modem zhuni have come onto the scene?

Dr Lu's article indicates imitations are made since 80s, from what I know Zhuni stuffs mainly came onto the scene by 90s, by demand from Taiwan..but during these days many 'nameless' Zhuni are actually quite good in quality and hand-made..and these potters made their name later on with their pots price gone up.

But that's not to imply all 90s Zhuni and so-called 90s Zhuni on the market, most of them are actually after-2000 stuffs, and being produced to these days even (like Chen Tu-gen family), original products all should be in Taiwan or came from Taiwan.

On the clay, Xiaomeiyao (mined since 50s), Hufu, Huanglongshan etc made up these new Zhuni..Zhaozhuang...doubtful so..as this clay quite ran out by the ROC...

Was zhuni (modern, of course) still mined during the 60's through 70's even though the factories weren't using it? There is a piece of information floating around the internet that one of the zhuni mines dried up in mid 70's, meaning it was either mined and hoarded.. or false information

According to Yixing Zisha Clay by Mr.Zhu, Xiao Mei Yao has 2 major mines, both were mined since 50s, I think mid-70s dried up mine could be Zhaozhuang mine..perhaps the Hongni mine...Zhaozhuang Zhuni was hardly seen by late-ROC period I think..

Not just scarcity, Zhuni is quite delicate and shrinks high that leads to a failure of firing..in other words, it's not suitable for mass production, I think both reasons are why Factory-1 didn't use Zhuni.

All this is very interesting, chrl42. But I think the fact that those Zhuni mines were still being mined from the 1950s on, which overlaps with the F1 era, leaves me wondering where did all that Zhuni clay go? If it was not being used by F1 because it is not suitable for mass production, where or what for was it being used?

Concerning the general discussion about zhuni, based on my experience, I can confirm, as pointed out by Tead off earlier, that zhuni clay pots are still being produced for and widely used in the Taiwan market even nowadays. Many vendors still claim that the clay comes from the legendary mines which, according to chr42, should have been exhausted long ago.

Purportedly early 2000s zhuni pots are available to people outside the island through some internet vendors (like Stephane's "tea masters" boutique). And 90s++ zhuni pots are on sale in almost every corner here, from teashops to antique shops. Taiwanese people seem to be particularly fond of this type of clay.

However, I must confess that, even after reviewing the issue of what zhuni clay is with some of my teachers, I still have trouble telling apart zhuni from some kinds of hong ni. Perhaps, from the potter's perspective, there is a clear cut difference, but in some cases it is not so clear from a user's point of view. Indeed, as far as I can tell, the confusion also affects many vendors here, and it is not uncommon to find those who call what appears to be hongni as zhuni, and viceversa.

[Tead Off]

Concerning the general discussion about zhuni, based on my experience, I can confirm, as pointed out by Tead off earlier, that zhuni clay pots are still being produced for and widely used in the Taiwan market even nowadays. Many vendors still claim that the clay comes from the legendary mines which, according to chr42, should have been exhausted long ago.

In my post, I said 'zhuni-like' pots. There are ways that other clays can be made to look like zhuni. There are also other sources for 'modern' zhuni clay, which apparently is not like the 'lao zhuni', or old zhuni that was mined in Qing up to F1. The Chinese are fond of stories and making up things as they go along to help market products. Those researchers who have investigated zhuni sources and claims that many sellers make about their pots being zhuni have discovered lots of myths and fantasy about it. Unless you know something about clay, you can be fooled more times than not.

[the_economist]

. The Chinese are fond of stories and making up things as they go along to help market products.

Surely you mean pot sellers and merchants, not "the Chinese".

[kyarazen]

Zhuni is not a strata or thick layer, instead it appears to occur in patches and in sporadic lumps/clumps.

The mines that produce Zhuni also produce hongni, but the ratio of hongni being found and collected is way higher than zhuni. its not like everything from zhaozhuang and XMY is zhuni.

1) Gu Jing Zhou and a couple of craftsmen have said that zhuni needs to be soluble in water. hong ni does not dissolve in water, as such there must be a difference in hydration/oxidation state, and perhaps even compositional ratio?

2) there was also mention that zhuni needs to be handled carefully and not allow it to oxidize, if not it becomes hong ni. this is unverified as of yet, but can be further investigated.

3) the proportion of red tea pots from Qing dynasty, where are so many all made of Zhuni, and the ratio of what one can see... there's almost no hong-ni products.

4) towards end qing, hongni pots started appearing in larger quantities

5) into 1930s to 50s, many of the pots are made of hongni, with a very small proportion from zhuni, typical seals? kai shu kuan, da chang kuan, early yixing huimengchen seal, etc.

6) the last "sighted" zhuni proper is from the 50s, the shuiping pots before F1, i.e. 4leg-xi seal. these shuipings came in 2 flavours, one zhuni and one hongni, with the former being much scarcer.

7) F1's hong ni is said to have high "shi-huang" content in the early days, that leads to collectors being able to distinguish and identify the material from the later ones. is this high content because of lingering zhu-ni traces? or was zhuni and hong ni both pooled together? this can be investigated.

in 60s-70s, red clay pots imported to south east asia were called "zhu sha guans" 朱砂罐。from early pots imported by Gao Jian Fa in malaysia in the early 50s, and other related merchants locally, so far, no 40-50s "zhu-ni" items were spotted. most of the 50s zhuni shuipings can be found in vietnam, and earlier late qing to ROC zhunis are found in thailand. this is not because south east asians in malaysia/sg/indonesia didnt like or didnt want zhuni, not especially when everyone's teochew, hokkien, it would imply that there was some scarcity and decline in production. even the old hongni proper (xiao hong ni), was said to be "extinct" in around '75.

9) taiwan has an oversupply of modern "zhuni", in the 90s, reproduction of qing to ROC old style zhuni pots was rampant. serious pot collectors in taiwan do not touch these modern pots, unless made by reputable artisan workshops in mainland, i.e. tang shi etc. these modern pots may be usable, but whether it has proper collection value, it is left to the merchants to describe and hype. the collectors generally dont seem to bother/hype it.

10) fine grinding, as seen in slipcast yixings from '58-60, does not give zhuni texture. something must have been added to induce the fluxing for modern zhuni

11) the difference between modern and old zhuni is heaven and earth. this needs to be a big subject of study for those interested in investing and collecting zhuni. for old zhuni identification, authentication, proper serious archaeologic and rationally scientific studies, do look up mr huang jian liang, he's on facebook too (despite having been verbally attacked online sometimes), and he has given lectures on the subject, you can view a couple of his lectures on youtube, the recent one on mengchen was quite well researched. if one cannot tell the difference between modern and old zhuni, or doesnt like/know how to appreciate the material, it would be good not to put too much money into it.

[chrl42]

All this is very interesting, chrl42. But I think the fact that those Zhuni mines were still being mined from the 1950s on, which overlaps with the F1 era, leaves me wondering where did all that Zhuni clay go? If it was not being used by F1 because it is not suitable for mass production, where or what for was it being used?

This is something I cannot confirm lol All I know is, early Xiao Mei Yao Zhuni, with its deadly shrinkage rate..Factory-1 would never think of using it (because 3~40% is quite successful rate) other than mixed Hongni

Concerning the general discussion about zhuni, based on my experience, I can confirm, as pointed out by Tead off earlier, that zhuni clay pots are still being produced for and widely used in the Taiwan market even nowadays. Many vendors still claim that the clay comes from the legendary mines which, according to chr42, should have been exhausted long ago

Zhaozhuang mine was pretty depleted by the ROC, that's why they sought and found Xiao Mei Yao mines..Huanglongshan Zhuni mines were scattered here and there..and all is small amount..so it's very hard to define what Huanglongshan Zhun is like

And 90s++ zhuni pots are on sale in almost every corner here, from teashops to antique shops. Taiwanese people seem to be particularly fond of this type of clay.

90s Zhuni pots are everywhere here in Beijing, too...

actually there are huge studios where make 90s Zhuni right now in Yixing...the clay is some sorta mixed stuffs..remember high-quality Zhuni is actually the rarest to acquire..

Below is my friend's pot...'early' Xiao Mei Yao Zhuni...I believe new Zhuni can be very good in quality too..just there's a freckle amount and too few potters can handle Zhuni properly these days

[Tead Off]

. The Chinese are fond of stories and making up things as they go along to help market products.

Surely you mean pot sellers and merchants, not "the Chinese".

Yes, of course. Usually the sellers in Asia are Chinese. At least the ones I've come across.