BRITT for ITD...ONI and Ian and MoGa too!!!

[Space Samurai]

The upshot is the next time he starts on another rant about how horrible China is, I'll remind him of this post. What a *freak* ing douche bag.

[brandon]

Coming out in favor of child labor is just one step below endorsing the Nazis.

Even though Mary has broken Godwin's Law awhile ago, righteous indignation has piled on, so we must continue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Perhaps Britt, like myself, has an analytical mind capable of separating the true history from the propaganda sold in the United States and widely bought by the populace as the record of events.

We will recall the few hundred years of white agriculturalists living in North America before the industrial revolution. These people had larger families than are the norm today, and not only because of higher mortality rates.
To run a farm above substinance levels and engage in trade with people of other professions required a large amount of labor. Much of this was supplied by the children of the family.

We have since moved very rapidly from an agrarian society to one that can be called a service economy, having moved passed even manufacturing. This leap, begun in the Industrial Revolution, is what enables our high standard of living, including smaller families and soon the end of the need child labor. Of course, in the popular fiction, child labor was a new invention of the Industrial Revolution, and it took the force of the just and righteous government to keep kids out of the hands of the feared Robber Barons.

Perhaps Britt is saying that Fair Trade is an elitist means to push our current set of Western values upon the rural Chinese, who have been thriving for a few thousand years this way (albeit below our very recent leap in standard of living). I don't agree with this simplistic approach - I think all the folks involved think they are doing the right thing. I will reserve judgement for now.

Call me a Nazi or a douchebag too, if you like.

[Sydney]

Call me a Nazi or a douchebag too, if you like.

Douchebag.

[joelbct]

Perhaps Britt is saying that Fair Trade is an elitist means to push our current set of Western values upon the rural Chinese, who have been thriving for a few thousand years this way (albeit below our very recent leap in standard of living). I don't agree with this simplistic approach - I think all the folks involved think they are doing the right thing. I will reserve judgement for now.

Interesting point. I think we should be cautious about "ethnocentrism" when observing and passing judgment upon other cultures.

All the same, there must be some line of absolutes when it comes to human rights- but whether children helping out on their family farms is an example of what we call 'child labor,' I don't know. Children forced into factories or factory tea farms, or for that matter toddlers forced into grueling training regimens to become potential Olympic gymnasts, seems wrong. Of course if the choice is that or starve to death, who are we to pass judgment from our far-away, comfortable world?

And btw, +1 for questioning the "propaganda sold in the United States and widely bought by the populace as the record of events. " Watching the news in this country is like being in Orwell's 1984. Thank the gods for Jon Stewart...

[scruffmcgruff]

Interesting point. I think we should be cautious about "ethnocentrism" when observing and passing judgment upon other cultures.

All the same, there must be some line of absolutes when it comes to human rights- the abuse of women and children springs to mind... Whether children helping out on their family farms is an example of what we call 'child labor,' I don't know. But children forced into factories or factory tea farms, or for that matter toddlers forced into grueling training regimens to become potential Olympic gymnasts, seems wrong. Of course if the choice is that or starve to death, who are we to pass judgment from our far-away, comfortable world?

This is an important distinction, IMO. I think of child labor as something quite different from the slave-like practices you have mentioned (plus child prostitution, etc.) and I imagine most people who demonize child labor are thinking only of the latter. Having kids work on the family farm (though not full-time during the school year) is a commonly accepted practice even in the Western world.

The "children should go to school" argument is great for developed nations, but idealistic and naive when imposed on poorer peoples, as brandon noted. When the choice comes down to having your children work or starve, I wouldn't say the former is an easy choice to make but it is certainly the most responsible (regardless of cultural perspective), even if it is unfortunate.

[Mary R]

I get all the arguments about ethnocentrism and idealism and all that other stuff, and I'm biologist enough to know that when the choice comes down to work or starve, the smart organism will opt for the work. I really do get it. But...

We're the one species that practices altruism for more than the most immediate needs. We know that if we give the next generation a leg up they'll see a little bit farther than we can, and we know that this is for the greater good in the long run. To see someone ignorantly say "outlawing child labor will make families starve!" galls me more than I can say. If one and one made two in social policy, perhaps that statement would be correct. But social equations are never that facile. No group will force a large scale labor redistribution without some form of insurance policy to cushion the blow.

'Course, I also think the cushy situation the American child has now is equally as bad as child slave-labor, so what do I know?

Nice catch on the Godwin's Law, btw, Brandon. I was wondering if anyone would cite that.

[Salsero]

Even though Mary has broken Godwin's Law awhile ago

Hasn't Mary complied with Godwin's law? I have always considered her law-abiding and I think this is only one more instance. Doesn't that make her "innocent as charged"?

BTW, I looooove Godwin's law, BH, thanks for telling me about it. But you really are a Nazi. j/k

Watching the news in this country is like being in Orwell's 1984. Thank the gods for Jon Stewart...

I'm with you on that one. While Stewart is certainly more chic and entertaining, IMHO he is equally clueless. The fact that his show has become so popular is a sign of how cynical Americans have become: we have little faith in our institutions yet we do not challenge them.

[scruffmcgruff]

To see someone ignorantly say "outlawing child labor will make families starve!" galls me more than I can say. If one and one made two in social policy, perhaps that statement would be correct. But social equations are never that facile. No group will force a large scale labor redistribution without some form of insurance policy to cushion the blow.

You make a good point, but if I can cover my ass here, I wasn't thinking in terms of social policy; I was thinking of the choice an individual family would have to make in the current environment. Until the government starts compensating its families for not employing their children, this is the kind of discussion that will continue to be necessary in poor Chinese households, and I don't think the suffering families should have to take the blame for the unfortunate decisions they are forced to make.

Also, I doubt China would do this in the near future; not to pull a Britt or anything, but I'm more than a little skeptical. Even if the government wanted to provide such an insurance policy, that would require an incredible amount of money and resources to pull off.

[Thirsty Daruma]

I love how foreign agricultural and family policy has made its way into ITD, though I doubt it is a debut.

If we want to complicate matters a bit more, most of the ranting about "child labor" should be focused on central and western China, where the inroads of wealth are very narrow and short indeed. That's where the family policies of large families for labor persist, and where the one-child policy is constantly overlooked by officials eager to take bribes.

[brandon]

Hasn't Mary complied with Godwin's law? I have always considered her law-abiding and I think this is only one more instance. Doesn't that make her "innocent as charged"?

You are very correct Sal - Godwin's Law as officially defined does not perfectly match what is commonly quoted. The common interpretation is that comparing someone to Hitler, a Nazi, the Holocaust, should be the de facto end of a thread. To lighten the mood:
http://xkcd.org/261/

For Mary's part, I realize now I have slightly missed her original intent.
I am thinking of child labor as it existed in our own country, which for the purposes of this discussion did not involve slavery. There are certainly some terrible things done to children in Asia, that should be outlawed. They did not come to my mind when thinking of child labor in the context of the tea trade in Yunnan Province.

Then there is the idea that the government (or in our present case, tea and coffee drinkers) know better about bringing up children than their own families, and must lavish economic incentives to make this new way viable.
As always, these incentives are funded on the back of the middle class either through direct taxation or an inflationary policy. I happen to disagree with this line of reasoning, to Mary's frustration.

[Mary R]

Meh, no real frustration here. I never said any "solution" was ideal. But, yeah. As a long standing member of the upper middle class, I don't mind paying taxes for social programs. And, hey, now that I'm going to grad school, I might have to take advantage of some of those programs. Yesterday I discovered that I'm going to be poor enough this next year to qualify for 162 "Oregon Trail Bucks" (ie, Food Stamps) a month.

Me thinks I won't be in such of a hurry to drink down the tea stash.

[Thirsty Daruma]

Seriously? The State calls them Oregon Trail Bucks? Nah, you've gotta be joking.

Meh, no real frustration here. I never said any "solution" was ideal. But, yeah. As a long standing member of the upper middle class, I don't mind paying taxes for social programs. And, hey, now that I'm going to grad school, I might have to take advantage of some of those programs. Yesterday I discovered that I'm going to be poor enough this next year to qualify for 162 "Oregon Trail Bucks" (ie, Food Stamps) a month.

Me thinks I won't be in such of a hurry to drink down the tea stash.

[Mary R]

Not really. The state website lists all the info on them as "The Food Stamp Program" and also alludes to an "Electronic Benefit Transfer System." By the latter, they mean the modern day food stamp, which is not a stamp at all but a credit card of sorts. Oregon's food stamp cards happen to be emblazoned with a covered wagon and the words "Oregon Trail," so I guess they got the nickname of Oregon Trail Bucks by those who use the benefit.

Today is a high point for me. I just applied for a job cleaning houses. Housecleaning and food stamps. I am thisclose to eatin' me some Kool-Aid pickles and tellin' Bobby Ray and Bobbie Sue to git their asses in the trailer fer a whuppin'.

[Thirsty Daruma]

Aw man, I would have preferred the official name being changed. "Super Phun Phood Bucks" or "Vittle Dollars". How about Luscious Lira, Epicurean Euros, Pounds for Pounds, or Picnic Pesos? Maybe they could just smear peanut butter on the stamps and make them vaguely edible. If only I were a legislator...

[Geekgirl]

Today is a high point for me. I just applied for a job cleaning houses. Housecleaning and food stamps. I am thisclose to eatin' me some Kool-Aid pickles and tellin' Bobby Ray and Bobbie Sue to git their asses in the trailer fer a whuppin'.

almost spit my tea.