Ivory, really?

[wert]

One can argue that the root of all of these problems is human beings. However, even we get rid of that by making humans extinct, we can't save the elephants or another other species.

It is estimated that over 99.9% of all species that ever lived are extinct. Humans are not excluded from that too so let's hope in the future, unicorns would show us some love when it is our turn. Human teeth could be quite a collector's item too.

[JBaymore]

Also, i sense a lot of hypocrisy here in this discussion. Everybody here appreciates tea ware in wood fired kilns. That though does impact the environment as well. The amount of trees that have to be cut for a firing is quite enormous, and lets not talk about the carbon emissions...

Just about everything humans do affects this planet in negative ways. The core issue in almost all the problems we discuss in many venues is not what ends up being discussed...... it is planetary population load.... not the other things. The other things are symptoms of the disease.

I was going to bring up the various impacts of pottery making...and the point is well made and taken. Too many potters do not acknowledge the impacts they have on the planet. There are many impacts ......from strip mining for ceramic raw materials to the production of CO2 to the environmental costs of shipping our work to customers. It is complex. Some people could argue and justify that the production of something like "art" is not worth it.

But let's also get something clear right here about wood firing versus gas and electric firing. I did a major presentation on this subject back in 1999 (I think) at the annual conference of the National Council for Education in the Ceramic Arts. Either in Portland OR or Seattle WA.... can't remember... presented at both venues out there a couple of years apart.

Electric kilns are probably one of the most polluting forms of firing there is (based on looking at CO2 production). This is because of the inefficient conversion from typically fossil fuel burning (natural gas, coal, oil, etc.) to electric energy and in the huge losses associated with long range electric transmission. Electric kilns DO have "fireboxes".... they are just NIMBY fireboxes. As far as CO2 production goes, you are far better burning a fuel right at the kiln than using electric as an energy source. We can get into the nuclear waste debate too here. SOME places get decent amounts of electric from hydro and solar... but they are few and far between (particularly in the USA).

Gas firing is more efficient than electric. But it too consumes non renewable fossil fuels. And produces CO2 that is released from those old reserves, and takes a long time to be scrubbed from the atmosphere.

Wood firing is basically carbon neutral when looked at on about a 30 year cycle. That is how long it takes for new growth to re-sequester the released carbon back into biomass. Most woodfireres I know either are firing with scrap wood that would be burned (uselessly) in big piles or left to rot in landfills (that rotting releases the same amount of carbon also), or they deliberately plant new trees to account for their burning.

Personally for about 30 years, all of the wood I have burned in my noborigama was been scrap wood, or sustained growth harvest from my own land. The wood has been scrap that simply got burned at a dump. One of my mill sources supported about a half dozen wood firing potters... and we did not begin to consume all the scrap they produced.

Wood firing DOES have a US EPA PM10 and PM 2 emission problem. There are particulates that escape the stack that cannot be easily controlled. But the particulates into the air from a well designed wood kiln are WAY less than the particulates from the open burning of the scrap wood.

BUT.................... Now we get into the matter of "perspective" and "magnitude".

As part of that NCECA presentation I did a section of the talk talking about the MAGNITUDE of the impact of wood firing relative to other human activity. I looked at various activities... like heating a house, driving an SUV, and so on. For the average potter..... their other activities were of far more concern than their kilns.

Kilns are a nice visual target...to the average person the glowing piles of bricks LOOK like huge energy wasters. The reality is not so simple.

I also looked at one of the huge energy consumption industries word-wide: aviation.

I don't have the analysis data here anymore... it was a long ago.... but as I remember I figured out that for the carbon footprint of one round trip flight from Kennedy's JFK airport to Japan's Narita airport........ I could fire my large noborigama once a month for 80 years. That was comparing to ONE single Boeing 747 flight. Think of the number of flights of all types that are in the air daily going around the globe. And all the local air traffic.

All the wood kilns in the world do not compare to this. If you want to fix things....... there are other places to look first that WILL have an impact.

So....... yes... pottery has an impact. BUT...... perspective folks... perspective.

best,

..............john

[chrl42]

This discussion inspired me to look back what I have as a tea item..

Bone China came to mind..but thank god bone china used to use a cow bone not elephant's

[JBaymore]

Great looking piece John, is this based on a Hyotan karamono by any chance? the futa looks very karamono with the raised knob.

Thanks Blair.

Hai...... so desu. Hyotan daisuki desu. Hyotan mono ga taksusan shimasu. Demo karamono ....... ja nai. Baymore futa, ne' .

best,

..............john

[theredbaron]

Also, i sense a lot of hypocrisy here in this discussion. Everybody here appreciates tea ware in wood fired kilns. That though does impact the environment as well. The amount of trees that have to be cut for a firing is quite enormous, and lets not talk about the carbon emissions...

All the wood kilns in the world do not compare to this. If you want to fix things....... there are other places to look first that WILL have an impact.

So....... yes... pottery has an impact. BUT...... perspective folks... perspective.

best,

..............john

OK, lets then boycott potters that fire in electric kilns

I was just being sarcy anyhow with that point. And thanks for the interesting comment.

[Chip]

Redbaron, oh, I read your posts and hear what you are saying.
I was just not going to respond to off topic condescending gibberish about how we live in our reclining chairs whining and complaining. And you say we oversimplify ...

Every society has its own set of problems. I happen to live in a US county that has one of the highest unemployment rates, crime rates, drug rates in the entire country. I just had a home robbery, have been a victim of road rage, assault and terroristic threats. All while the police just want to hand out speeding tickets. No, life can be difficult anywhere.

Really, "killing is killing," you see no difference in a cow being harvested and fully utilized and an elephant being poached and left to rot in order to fulfill vain ivory lust and greed? And you say we oversimplify?!

As long as people are willing to buy ivory and collect it, then this problem will always be with us. Eliminate the buyer/collector, the motivation stops. Every buyer at every level is part of the problem.

So rant if this help you feel better about the supposedly non poached ivory in your hands.

But the topic is about buyers of chaire buying and importing ivory illegally, unknowingly in many cases I am sure since sellers in Japan are not disclosing this rather important detail that could put the buyer in quite a big of trouble. And to this end I will take some degree of action knowing full well that I cannot fix the bigger picture.

[ethan]

The piece shown here w/ the non-ivory white lid is beautiful to me also. I'd like to own one like that; nonetheless, the white on top seems out of place as I look at the photograph. Perhaps seeing the work & not an image of it, would give me a different impression; or, over time I'd come to like the contrast.

The activity of this post is fun; however, I hope it does not = animosity. TeaChat is unusually civil & makes life much better for me.

Comments about outrage remind me of Elaine, a tv character on Seinfeld, who like other principals of the show, is not someone who contributes much, if anything, to the world. Upon seeing anyone wearing fur, Elaine would run over to them to tell them how horrible she was to wear it, feeling justified in making old ladies et. al. cry.

I come from a rural county of New Jersey where farmers lose significant amounts of their crops to raccoons, which they or others try to trap. Unlucky animals are going to be killed even if there is no market for their pelts which can be made into warm & very durable garments. Such use of fur does not add suffering to the world, as raising animals in cages just for their fur etc. does. If fur really shows (that is that the hair is on the outside); the wearer can easily incur the wrath of the Elaines of the world. Praise for not wasting the raccoon's skin to keep warm for decades, is unlikely.

The government of South Africa practices humane culling of elephants. (Leaving no elephant traumatized by witnessing the killing of its relatives & friends.) The gift shops at the national parks sell leather products from the elephants who had to die to prevent over-population in the parks; &, $ from such sales help keep the parks & their work (which includes preservation of species) going. Take out a wallet made of elephant skin in mixed company; you will not get to finish the story about it before someone gives you the stinkeye.

[Evan Draper]

Snowpiercer, available on Netflix, RIYL this thread

[Chip]

Interesting post, Jerry ... er ethan.

It seems South Africa is close to being elephant utopia.

I am curious, what do they do with the tusks?

[theredbaron]

Redbaron, oh, I read your posts and hear what you are saying.
I was just not going to respond to off topic condescending gibberish about how we live in our reclining chairs whining and complaining. And you say we oversimplify ...

Every society has its own set of problems. I happen to live in a US county that has one of the highest unemployment rates, crime rates, drug rates in the entire country. I just had a home robbery, have been a victim of road rage, assault and terroristic threats. All while the police just want to hand out speeding tickets. No, life can be difficult anywhere.

Really, "killing is killing," you see no difference in a cow being harvested and fully utilized and an elephant being poached a left to rot in order to fulfill vain ivory lust and greed? And you say we oversimplify?!

As long as people are willing to buy ivory and collect it, then this problem will always be with us. Eliminate the buyer/collector, the motivation stops. Every buyer at every level is part of the problem.

But the topic is about buyers of chaire buying and importing ivory illegally, unknowingly in many cases I am sure since sellers in Japan are not disclosing this rather important detail that could put the buyer in quite a big of trouble.

Oh, well, yes, since the discussion became a bit to complicated we just try to limit it now to chaire with ivory caps, and your initial moral outrage. Discussions develop, and this one developed beyond an echo chamber of people sharing their indignation and moral outrage.

So, you don't want to buy chaire with ivory lids. That is your decision. And quite possibly i would make the same decision, because, believe it or not, i do also not feel too comfortable with ivory that possibly came from the illegal market. So far i have resisted the temptation, and it was not difficult. But i am not letting you or anybody else dictate which decisions i will make.

But your proposal of blanket bans, or blanket boycott of all ivory is not just not realistic, it is also counterproductive. Which you could see if you might consider taking a step back and stop being so emotional about this issue.

As several people here have tried to explain you - ivory has been in use in many parts of Asia for a very long time. It has artistic, cultural and religious value. If you feel that strong on this issue, i would suggest then, that you try to create awareness under artisans to use legal ivory bought in the legal market. Such as mammoth ivory. This way you respect their culture and art and you help preserving elephants.

And yes, on a MORAL level, killing an elephant is the same as killing a cow. "Harvesting a cow" - oh, my, it sounds so clinical... cows are very intelligent and sensitive animals, and they are not harvested, they are killed as well. Does it make you uncomfortable when you eat a nice steak to think that an animal had to be killed for it? Or why else would you use the term "harvested"?

Here in Asia, elephants that are killed are often utilized the same way - the meat, the skin, the tusks, the hair on the tails. Does that make it any better to fully utilize an illegally poached animal of an endangered species? Hardly.

In India, cows are sacred. Killing cows is in fact illegal in most states there, and beef is only found in the illegal market. Does that give Indians the right to tell you in the US that you should stop eating beef? Hardly. The same way you have no right to tell people who appreciate the beauty of ivory to stop using ivory altogether, even if it comes from legal sources.

I have no problem with the amulets in my collection as they did not come from an illegally poached elephant, but an elephant that died of natural causes.

[theredbaron]

The government of South Africa practices humane culling of elephants. (Leaving no elephant traumatized by witnessing the killing of its relatives & friends.) The gift shops at the national parks sell leather products from the elephants who had to die to prevent over-population in the parks; &, $ from such sales help keep the parks & their work (which includes preservation of species) going. Take out a wallet made of elephant skin in mixed company; you will not get to finish the story about it before someone gives you the stinkeye.

Thanks for bringing perspective into the discussion.

[rdl]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -trip.html

Even royalty is reading TeaChat!

[Chip]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -trip.html

Even royalty is reading TeaChat!

you almost had me going there!

Could get as hot as this topic, perhaps.

[Fuut]

Snowpiercer, available on Netflix, RIYL this thread

No offense, but terrible movie. Really terrible.

Lets just stay with the current discussion as that made was just non-nonsensical.

On topic, does China have wild elephants? I know Africa, India/Cambodia and the region have elephants, but the whole problems starts at the living grounds of these animals.

[ethan]

I don't know what is being done w/ the tusks of culled elephants now in South Africa. As you probably know, attempts to hinder the trade of ivory poachers were selling seized ivory to raise $ to fight poaching; selling culled ivory for the same reasons; burning seized ivory; & burning all ivory.