Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

Owes its flavors to oxidation levels between green & black tea.


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Apr 3rd, '15, 08:18
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Re:

by kyarazen » Apr 3rd, '15, 08:18

demonyc wrote:I've been following this discussion with great interest, there have been lots of really thought-provoking ideas so far! I've also always wondered about the heat retention properties of thick- vs. thin-walled pots since I have heard and read many conflicting theories on this subject.

actually everything is within your control.

the easiest is probably to have a pot that gives you a bigger margin to play with than a pot with a narrow margin of error. but with enough mastery, anything goes.

thick wall pots do take away heat from the tea, but if the pot is sufficiently pre-heated, then the effect of heat capacity of the pot wall is reduced. a thin wall pot without pre-heating doesnt take away much heat since it is much lesser material, and similarly with lesser material, it may not retain heat as well

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Apr 3rd, '15, 08:43
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Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by demonyc » Apr 3rd, '15, 08:43

kyarazen wrote:...the easiest is probably to have a pot that gives you a bigger margin to play with than a pot with a narrow margin of error. but with enough mastery, anything goes.

thick wall pots do take away heat from the tea, but if the pot is sufficiently pre-heated, then the effect of heat capacity of the pot wall is reduced. a thin wall pot without pre-heating doesnt take away much heat since it is much lesser material, and similarly with lesser material, it may not retain heat as well
Thanks for your informative reply, kyarazen. One more thing that your comment brings up for me: in your opinion, exactly what properties of a pot provide for greater or lesser margins of error?

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by wert » Apr 3rd, '15, 08:53

It is the human brewing the tea that matters, the pot is just one of the tools. Everyone lives in different conditions, temperatures, have different habits, etc etc. Furthermore, even the pots and teas, we are talking about are of massive variations, there is no common point of discussion here.

So, all these theories are not as conductive to learning as actually brewing a cup of tea for yourself.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by AdmiralKelvinator » Apr 3rd, '15, 08:54

kyarazen wrote:too hot for too long you get the bitterness and roughness in the brew turning it vile, so you need to be just hot enough to get the aromatics come to life, and subsequently delayed over extraction of the excess tea compounds (excess leads to bitter) either by compressing the leaves into a small vessel limiting the swelling, or by a pot that cools fast enough after the initial heat spike. this is why i prefer a flatter pot with a fast pour.

thicker walls help to drop water temp too ;)
Fairly put, there's rarely any firm and fast rules (part of what makes it interesting eh?) and any tea can become bitter and nasty without proper attention. However, for me, if the tea was too strong or bitter my first instinct would be to shorten the steep time, or even decrease the amount of leaf rather than lower the temp. I feel that in general time is easier to control than temp.

It's really interesting to compare the effects of manipulating these variables. Of course they all have an effect on how the tea comes out, but I wonder if one can definitely state "fragrance is influenced most by X" or "bitterness is caused mostly by Y". Would love to hear more on this from more experienced members.

I'm neither an expert nor even particularly well informed when it comes to yixing but my feeling is that, sufficiently pre-heated, thicker walls would retain heat better than thin ones.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by xiaobai » Apr 3rd, '15, 09:10

The fact that one can brew a nice yancha in a gaiwan (depending on the type of yancha, of course) probably means that tall vessels are not to be discarded entirely.

However, it is important to be aware of the heat retention properties of the vessel of choice. And the latter depend strongly on the shape of the vessel, as emphasized above, and to some extent on the material properties such like the thickness and the clay type. Then the vessel must provide the leaves a short period of intense heat followed by rapid cooling or quick pouring.

It is also clear that everything finally depends on the person. Someone with the proper degree of awareness and skills can brew heavenly tea in a cup of glass. Unfortunately, my skills do not reach that far... :(

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by kyarazen » Apr 3rd, '15, 09:29

xiaobai wrote:The fact that one can brew a nice yancha in a gaiwan (depending on the type of yancha, of course) probably means that tall vessels are not to be discarded entirely.

However, it is important to be aware of the heat retention properties of the vessel of choice. And the latter depend strongly on the shape of the vessel, as emphasized above, and to some extent on the material properties such like the thickness and the clay type. Then the vessel must provide the leaves a short period of intense heat followed by rapid cooling or quick pouring.

It is also clear that everything finally depends on the person. Someone with the proper degree of awareness and skills can brew heavenly tea in a cup of glass. Unfortunately, my skills do not reach that far... :(
:lol: thats how people become "tea masters", when they can brew heavenly tea in all sorts of conditions and pots, cups, gaiwan, or bowls, reproduce conditions and experiences for people. tea experts of the past centuries had very much lesser distractions than us today, many of the small pots were not cheap items and not mass produced. now, with added abundance and varieties, pot collecting is serious business, so is pot making, and pot selling, pot reselling etc.

the dangers of being too scientific on tea takes culture and mysticism out of tea, the dangers of treating tea in an excessively mystical way leads to delusion. the risks of brewing to one self mindlessly is almost as good as drinking water. well, but at least discussion is fun :lol:

on the topic, its funny how i recently chanced the reason upon why yancha in a qing/roc pot had better aromatics when a/b-ed with one of decent recent manufacture, same shape. but its probably not worthy of discussion since the masters and gurus would think that there would be no point for discussion. (kinda ironical, since tea chat, is to chat no?)

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by kyarazen » Apr 3rd, '15, 09:36

if you refer to one of my earlier posts, i did mention that pre-heating does help in heat retension.

there are many ways and traditions to have tea, together with many brewing styles, depending on your preferred type of brew, you can develop the parameters. the scentific parameters are out there as a quick guide to help you achieve your preferred brew. it is no difference in pulling espresso shots, some like it "americano" i.e. espresso into hot water, some like it ristretto, some like it lungo.. from the same beans, same grind, just different amounts, different ways of drawing the shots. the parameters being pressure, temperature, bean roast, compactness of the tamping etc.

since you're in japan it could be nice to drop by hojo's for a while. japanese clays can be quite fun to play with, the effects on tea is immediate and obvious
AdmiralKelvinator wrote:
Fairly put, there's rarely any firm and fast rules (part of what makes it interesting eh?) and any tea can become bitter and nasty without proper attention. However, for me, if the tea was too strong or bitter my first instinct would be to shorten the steep time, or even decrease the amount of leaf rather than lower the temp. I feel that in general time is easier to control than temp.

It's really interesting to compare the effects of manipulating these variables. Of course they all have an effect on how the tea comes out, but I wonder if one can definitely state "fragrance is influenced most by X" or "bitterness is caused mostly by Y". Would love to hear more on this from more experienced members.

I'm neither an expert nor even particularly well informed when it comes to yixing but my feeling is that, sufficiently pre-heated, thicker walls would retain heat better than thin ones.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by xiaobai » Apr 3rd, '15, 09:51

kyarazen wrote:

since you're in japan it could be nice to drop by hojo's for a while. japanese clays can be quite fun to play with, the effects on tea is immediate and obvious
It is interesting that you bring up this topic. Let us just continue chatting :wink: ...

I own pots made from (almost) the entire range of Hojo's clays (Mumyoi, Nosaka oxidation and reduction, Shigaraki, Biwako, Banko, and Tokoname Shudei). I would certainly agree that their effects on tea are obvious, but I am not sure whether it is favorable in all cases.

In my experience, I have found them to be beneficial for some teas, but for others I have been badly let down (especially compared to modern Yixing clay in a similar or even lower price range).

Relevant to this thread, do you have any recommendations for yancha? I recently experimented with a flat Nosaka oxidation pot made by Watanabe san, and did not find the result much of my liking. I had similar experience with Shigaraki.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by kyarazen » Apr 3rd, '15, 09:55

demonyc wrote:
Thanks for your informative reply, kyarazen. One more thing that your comment brings up for me: in your opinion, exactly what properties of a pot provide for greater or lesser margins of error?
it depends on the definition of error first which we can systematically identify

1) tea is too thick, coats tongue and leaves a saturated layer that is uncomfortable

2) tea is overbrewed, bitterness that makes one uncomfortable (depends on individual threshold)

3) undesirable notes, i.e. cooked vegetal notes especially with green oolongs from spring. (autumn teas are more resistant to heat)

4) tea is too thin, off balance, watery

etc etc etc..

the rectifications are as follow

1) if the tea is too thick, is it because the leaf quantity is too much? or is the tea pot pouring too slowly? there are some pots that can take up to 18 seconds or more to empty, whilst the fastest can be in 5 seconds+. as you are dispensing the tea, if its too slow, the leaves are still steeping. choose a pot with a suitable pour, if not, if one is depending on fixed steep intervals, one can choose to reduce the steep interval by five or ten seconds correspondingly

2) bitterness is most obviously experienced using Sencha, dancong, new sheng pu-erh from spring. if you cold steep any of these teas, or use reduced temperatures, the brew can be delightfully sweet, but missing the middle and weighty bottoms of the teas. if you use boiling water, with the wrong leaf quantity, too long steep duration, and if the pot retains heat very well during the steep duration, bitter compounds come out easily. a slow pour also can lead to over-steeping

3) undesirable notes from green rolled oolong, particularly high mountain spring tea, this is when the water is too hot for too long, you can put some of these leafs into a thermos and boiling water to experience the vegetal notes. heat retension by vessel may have a role to play, but if rolled teas are put into a flat pot, the limited swelling also makes the tea not as good as it should be. if the water is not hot enough too, the rolled teas cannot open well nor fast enough, the first couple of steeps are very delicate. the way to overcome this is to use a rounder pot like a xian-piao, but work on the water dispensing method from the kettle to generate more moderate temps.

4) tea is too thin, watery, the easiest and most common time this is experienced is when one uses really tiny pots, 1 cup, 2 cup type of pots, these type of pots cool the fastest, pre heating, a nice saucer or tea boat to hold some water etc, will help.

5) many more! one has to define what "error" is, and then look for how to rectify it to improve :)

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by kyarazen » Apr 3rd, '15, 10:04

haha! i have shiggie, nosaka, banko, toko shudei and a couple of other japanese clays. to be really honest, for yancha or dancong i only liked shudei and hokujo's special clay mix. (shhhh... tokoshudei doesnt perform at that of yx red for some teas but they perform excellently with japanese teas)

i gave a shiggie to a local tea master a few months ago, we had a rare DHP brewed in 3 different vessels including the shiggie. the shiggie was most obviously benefiting the aroma but gave some roughness into the brew.

hokujo's clay mix was the first time i found delight in its performance with most chinese teas. however, most of hokujo's pots are too huge for chinese style brewing. for most of the chinese tea brewings i'm using his gaiwan made of this material now. i've put in an order with toru at AN for a few of the smaller pots(160ml?), and it will probably take a year before the order is fulfilled with the backlog at hokujo.
artisticnippon.com/product/tokoname/hokujo/yakishimehiramarusmall.html
xiaobai wrote: It is interesting that you bring up this topic. Let us just continue chatting :wink: ...

I own pots made from (almost) the entire range of Hojo's clays (Mumyoi, Nosaka oxidation and reduction, Shigaraki, Biwako, Banko, and Tokoname Shudei). I would certainly agree that their effects on tea are obvious, but I am not sure whether it is favorable in all cases.

In my experience, I have found them to be beneficial for some teas, but for others I have been badly let down (especially compared to modern Yixing clay in a similar or even lower price range).

Relevant to this thread, do you have any recommendations for yancha? I recently experimented with a flat Nosaka oxidation pot made by Watanabe san, and did not find the result much of my liking. I had similar experience with Shigaraki.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by xiaobai » Apr 3rd, '15, 10:23

kyarazen wrote:haha! i have shiggie, nosaka, banko, toko shudei and a couple of other japanese clays. to be really honest, for yancha or dancong i only liked shudei and hokujo's special clay mix. (shhhh... tokoshudei doesnt perform at that of yx red for some teas but they perform excellently with japanese teas)

i gave a shiggie to a local tea master a few months ago, we had a rare DHP brewed in 3 different vessels including the shiggie. the shiggie was most obviously benefiting the aroma but gave some roughness into the brew.

hokujo's clay mix was the first time i found delight in its performance with most chinese teas. however, most of hokujo's pots are too huge for chinese style brewing. for most of the chinese tea brewings i'm using his gaiwan made of this material now. i've put in an order with toru at AN for a few of the smaller pots(160ml?), and it will probably take a year before the order is fulfilled with the backlog at hokujo.
artisticnippon.com/product/tokoname/hokujo/yakishimehiramarusmall.html
I agree that many of Hojo's clays and possibly other Japanese clays (haven't tried Hokujo's yet) perform quite well with Japanese teas (not only greens, Tokame shudei is quite good with Japanese reds, and Tokoname reduction is good with Japanese Oolongs and green Baozhong).

I also found that Nosaka reduction performs well with some Dancongs (my pot is rather tall, almost looks like a Gaiwan, but being a clay pot has better heat retention). Kobiwako oxidation performs well with Taiwanese red teas and some Oolongs. Banko is also good with Green Oolongs from Taiwan and even Shu.

I am not so convinced about the virtues of Shigaraki and Nosaka though. Both of them are excellent with Sencha and even Kamairicha. But haven't got any Chinese/Taiwanese tea to brew outstandingly well in them. Same goes to Mumyoi oxidation, which is Ok for most teas, but still not fully satisfactory with most non-Japanese teas.

I have been in contact with Hojo for a while and we still have not figured out what the problems with those clays may be in my case. They are certainly good stuff, and there is a lot of work and research going into them, but maybe there are other uncontrolled factors that escape me at the moment which make them underperform.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by AdmiralKelvinator » Apr 3rd, '15, 10:32

kyarazen wrote:if you refer to one of my earlier posts, i did mention that pre-heating does help in heat retension.

could be nice to drop by hojo's for a while. japanese clays can be quite fun to play with, the effects on tea is immediate and obvious
Yes I should look him up one of these days. I wonder where in Japan he's based. too bad the only brick and mortar store is in Malaysia.

Well, drifting away from Yixing clay, but as long as we're on the subject...I picked up a small (70ml) tokoname kyusu (not from Hojo) recently but have been debating about what teas to pair it with. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to brew lots of different teas in it and judge for myself, but I wondered if anyone had an insights into pairing chinese teas with tokoname ware or about red tokoname clay in general. Is it more pourous than yixing red clay, or quite fine? Generally low fired or high fired? I feel like if I know the general parameters of the clay and how its commonly fired (tho how easy it is to generalize about tokoname I don't know) that can guide me as to what teas to try out first.

EDIT: to xiaobai, what would you consider a "Japanese Oolong"? The oolong tea they sell here is very similar to yancha (tho quite watered down) but I believe most of it is made in china as it is. Haven't drank a true "Japanese Oolong" before.
Last edited by AdmiralKelvinator on Apr 3rd, '15, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by steanze » Apr 3rd, '15, 10:35

xiaobai wrote: I have been in contact with Hojo for a while and we still have not figured out what the problems with those clays may be in my case. They are certainly good stuff, and there is a lot of work and research going into them, but maybe there are other uncontrolled factors that escape me at the moment which make them underperform.
Do they take out too much of the aromatics from the tea? That often happens with non yixing clays. Did you try to pour boiling water in one of these pots and in a gaiwan, leave it there for a couple of minutes, and do a side by side comparison?

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by kyarazen » Apr 3rd, '15, 12:24

toko shudei is fired around 1100-1150 degs celsius generally.. not sure if thats considered high for that material

but the main feature is that modern toko shudei is extremely fine.. it doesnt feel glassy after firing, but a silken feel, which means it is porous with an incredibly large surface area due to the fine particles.

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Re: Yixing clay that is suitable for yancha

by hobin » Apr 3rd, '15, 17:37

kyarazen wrote:
hobin wrote:
AdmiralKelvinator wrote:In my own personal experience, the pot I've come around to using for yancha is indeed a tallish pot with thicker walls.
That makes sense. I've read that the si-ting (tall pear shape) was considered one of the best pots for yancha in the old times. It is tall but has a wider bottom so the leaves find a lot of space...
unfortunately my only si-ting is 130 ml... a tad too big for yancha :|
that is interesting to hear, because two references, one by weng, and the other by zeng chunan both seem to propose that a flatter pot for both yancha and dancong, but to them the pot should be the size where you can dispense 3-4 cups of tea.

more interestingly, the smaller the pot the easier it cools. if its huge, like a few hundred millilitres then the effects are not prominent within a minute at all
What about using a bigger pot (150-180) and fill it 2/3?
I never tried that but maybe it' ok not to fill it to the brim. that way you'll have less heat dispersion and more room for the leaves to expand

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