Bizen, shino & other teaware appreciation anyone?

[William]

Not sure what you mean by found only in Korean culture.

E.g. the traditional use of tatami, the origin of chanoyu, the iron kettles, the way Nabe (a Japanese hot pot dish) is prepared .. and a few other thousands things!

[Tead Off]

Tell us about the origin of Chanoyu, please. Also of tetsubin.

[JBaymore]

E.g. the traditional use of tatami, the origin of chanoyu, the iron kettles, the way Nabe (a Japanese hot pot dish) is prepared .. and a few other thousands things!

Not so sure about that list either.

best,

...............john

[William]

For chanoyu real origin read this essay: http://chanoyu-to-wa.tumblr.com/post/28 ... connection

For tetsubin (and tatami) origin I need to search on my laptop the essay I read.

[JBaymore]

For chanoyu real origin read this essay: http://chanoyu-to-wa.tumblr.com/post/28 ... connection

I've read his blog many times. He makes some interesting proposals, and provides some scholarly documentation, for sure. However, his suppositions are not widely accepted by those who are also considered 'scholars' in the field. Even he says that there is no real proof for what he stipulates.

Even speaking as a college professor who teaches some art history ..... his postings are exceptionally 'long-winded'. He could do with a good editor.

For your particular contention, a lot depends on how you define the "roots" of Chanoyu also. To me the core roots tend to be all the way back to the tea drinking practices in China.

There is no question that huge amounts of "Chinese" influences reached Japan via the landmass that is Korea. One can find that in looking even somewhat casually at architecture, the visual, theatre, and written arts, and so on.

What is "purely" Korean, having no Chinese nor Japanese antecedents..... well, that is harder to find.

The long standing animosities between China, Korea, and Japan are certainly a potential factor in the "acceptance" of anything that does not reflect positively on one particular country over another. No question there either. That fact does not make his various suppositions correct however.

Terribly interesting person in some ways... but at the moment is it is mostly one person's views in a sea of other people's views. Could he be right.... of course. IS he right....... no one knows.

best,

.....................john

[William]

I've read his blog many times. He makes some interesting proposals, and provides some scholarly documentation, for sure. However, his suppositions are not widely accepted by those who are also considered 'scholars' in the field. Even he says that there is no real proof for what he stipulates.

Even speaking as a college professor who teaches some art history ..... his postings are exceptionally 'long-winded'. He could do with a good editor.

For your particular contention, a lot depends on how you define the "roots" of Chanoyu also. To me the core roots tend to be all the way back to the tea drinking practices in China.

There is no question that huge amounts of "Chinese" influences reached Japan via the landmass that is Korea. One can find that in looking even somewhat casually at architecture, the visual, theatre, and written arts, and so on.

What is "purely" Korean, having no Chinese nor Japanese antecedents..... well, that is harder to find.

The long standing animosities between China, Korea, and Japan are certainly a potential factor in the "acceptance" of anything that does not reflect positively on one particular country over another. No question there either. That fact does not make his various suppositions correct however.

Terribly interesting person in some ways... but at the moment is it is mostly one person's views in a sea of other people's views. Could he be right.... of course. IS he right....... no one knows.

best,

.....................john

Thanks for your opinion.
Yes, what is stated there is just a mere opinion, that is for sure; but among the many, I honestly think his to be the most probable.

[hobin]

Interesting matter indeed.
There's a recent book - "Tollini - La Cultura del Te" (Einaudi - only in Italian, unfortunately) that deals with the origins of chanoyu. It is well documented and a thorough read (at the end there are translations of classic Japanese texts about chanoyu).

[William]

Interesting matter indeed.
There's a recent book - "Tollini - La Cultura del Te" (Einaudi - only in Italian, unfortunately) that deals with the origins of chanoyu. It is well documented and a thorough read (at the end there are translations of classic Japanese texts about chanoyu).

Thanks (again) for the tip! Another book to buy!

[chrl42]

Korea also had many immigrants from China, manchuria, mongolia and even from middle east (they came through ocean routes, not the silk road)..the culture, however, was deeply affected by China..epecially in a sense of confucianism..Chosun Koreans often boasted that they truly perpetuate the confucianism more than the Chinese when Manchu's Qing was founded.

Japan received Chinese culture later than Korea or via Korea..difference was they received it more diversely, not only confucianiam..and made into their own..late-Edo period, the Japanese understood confucianism no less than the Koreans, Japan's day was about to soar.

I feel a sense that Korea's effect on Japanese tea culture, in many ways, is overrated (than normal Korean's view)..truth is Chosun Korea was dominately a confucian country and many acts of previous buddhistic Koryo's root were oppressed, that includes tea drinking. Chosun Korea, tea drinking was a quite minor culture among buddhists and scholars..and that culture even, is forgotten these days a lot..but records indicate many great Korean scholars were true tea lovers nonetheless...

Current Korean tea culture was quite established in 20th century..from effect by Japan and China...many Korean tea producers are trying to trace Cho Yi Sun Sa (Korean Lu Yu) or Jung Yak-yong's direction and reincarnate..but not easy so..

[Tead Off]

For chanoyu real origin read this essay: http://chanoyu-to-wa.tumblr.com/post/28 ... connection

For tetsubin (and tatami) origin I need to search on my laptop the essay I read.

As chrl42 points out, Joseon period put the clamps on Buddhist practices and philosophy for centuries and the Japanese had the final coup de tete (my term) to suppress all Korean culture during their colonization of Korea which ended after WWII. A read of Brother Anthony's book 'The Korean Way of Tea' sheds some light on this and the 'rebirth' of Korea's interest in tea. But to equate the Chanoyu with Korean culture is a grave misunderstanding. And, I also have no clue to why you say tetsubin also originated in Korea. The Japanese are known to have pioneered cast iron kettles.

Korea may have served as a land bridge to China, and Buddhism was firmly established quite early, but all Japanese texts point to China as the source of their teachings, especially the great T'ang period when many of the Zen Patriarchs flourished and Japanese monks spent years learning and gathering teachings and returning to Japan.

As far as pottery goes, the Song dynasty really established its ceramics in conjunction with tea culture and powdered tea and served as the model which the Japanese scholars and monks took and developed their own way of Chanoyu which is not present either in China or Korea. What is present in Japan is the stylistic influence of the Song and Korean pottery styles which were then developed by the Japanese and integrated into their own culture. But, even Korea borrowed almost everything Chinese to eventually turn out something called 'Korean'. All of us are composites of everything that has come before us.

What is going on in Korea now is a kind of searching for a cultural identity that was taken from them through centuries of invasion and suppression. Christianity has also become very influential there to further complicate the equation of what it is to be 'Korean'. Can we say bibimbap is Korean?

[chrl42]

For chanoyu real origin read this essay: http://chanoyu-to-wa.tumblr.com/post/28 ... connection

For tetsubin (and tatami) origin I need to search on my laptop the essay I read.

As chrl42 points out, Joseon period put the clamps on Buddhist practices and philosophy for centuries and the Japanese had the final coup de tete (my term) to suppress all Korean culture during their colonization of Korea which ended after WWII. A read of Brother Anthony's book 'The Korean Way of Tea' sheds some light on this and the 'rebirth' of Korea's interest in tea. But to equate the Chanoyu with Korean culture is a grave misunderstanding. And, I also have no clue to why you say tetsubin also originated in Korea. The Japanese are known to have pioneered cast iron kettles.

Korea may have served as a land bridge to China, and Buddhism was firmly established quite early, but all Japanese texts point to China as the source of their teachings, especially the great T'ang period when many of the Zen Patriarchs flourished and Japanese monks spent years learning and gathering teachings and returning to Japan.

As far as pottery goes, the Song dynasty really established its ceramics in conjunction with tea culture and powdered tea and served as the model which the Japanese scholars and monks took and developed their own way of Chanoyu which is not present either in China or Korea. What is present in Japan is the stylistic influence of the Song and Korean pottery styles which were then developed by the Japanese and integrated into their own culture. But, even Korea borrowed almost everything Chinese to eventually turn out something called 'Korean'. All of us are composites of everything that has come before us.

What is going on in Korea now is a kind of searching for a cultural identity that was taken from them through centuries of invasion and suppression. Christianity has also become very influential there to further complicate the equation of what it is to be 'Korean'. Can we say bibimbap is Korean?

Korean being affected by China and Japan (after 20th century) or America doesn't mean Korea doesn't have a own culture but the tea culture I was meaning.

It's just the Japanese was more conscious and did it better in overall aspects..the Chosun Korea was a heavy class society..the confucianism stagnated the nation's commerce..engineers and scientists were treated low..the upper class was polluted and the farmers were starving after giving all rice and meals for their landlords..

I respect the Japanese and its culture..it was Japanese influence that changed lazy and fatal-believing the late-Chosun Koreans, the work ethnics. The success of Samsung and Hyundai borrowed many from Japanese previous routes..what I am cautious though is their bad habits of history revising..and which also is still a topic in all of asian news sections and which is obvious, that may affected you as well.

[hobin]

Interesting matter indeed.
There's a recent book - "Tollini - La Cultura del Te" (Einaudi - only in Italian, unfortunately) that deals with the origins of chanoyu. It is well documented and a thorough read (at the end there are translations of classic Japanese texts about chanoyu).

Thanks (again) for the tip! Another book to buy!

sent you a PM

[William]

Created a new topic here: http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21016

[Fuut]

Ok, i don't want this topic to vanish into the never ending history of topics..

So here's another headscratcher, something not so frequently seen. Tokoname chawan. The funny thing is that i have 2 chawan by the same maker, and i have no clue who it might be. This will be with img links, because otherwise it would be 3 posts

This one is slightly bigger than the second one:










The second one, slightly smaller (both boxes are identical).






Maybe someone can identify some markers via the signature and boxes, thank you in advance.


Edit:

There's a lot of interest in tokoname but--is there anyone into bizen?

Hah, after seeing your opening post, i kinda feel that tokoname chawan are less frequently seen or discussed

[Tead Off]

Fuut,

The red mud that your chawan is made from has become the main identifier for most Tokoname teaware. It's unfortunate because there are potters working with various clays and in various style that you would never guess are Tokoname. One of the most famous potters in Japan, Koie Ryoji, makes things you would never associate with Tokoname.

Koie Ryoji Tokoname .jpg (36.54 KiB) Viewed 756 times