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Ivory, really?

by mcrdotcom » Dec 8th, '14, 17:55

JBaymore wrote:I re-state my question:

So given the discussion happening here...... should the huge number of museums that hold objects from Japan (and China) made of ivory and have them in their collections and often on display, no longer exhibit these works? And should they then destroy the pieces held in their collections?

best,

..................john
No in my opinion. I'm against the use of modern ivory because we have an endangered species that could be wiped out. But what has happened in many years past is a part of history, and should be remembered, I think as chip said like the holocaust... It is a reminder of what we as humans do wrong and should never do again.

Ivory can make wonderful pieces of beauty, and before people knew what the extent of use of Ivory was doing to the animals being slaughtered, it was just like killing to survive, to them at least. So no, why rid ourselves of historic, often beautiful (aesthetically) objects, that most importantly of all remind us what our vanity can do? Perhaps museums should supply information along side these objects on what Ivory usage has done, and will do if it continues!

Just a thought, and just my opinion!

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by bonescwa » Dec 8th, '14, 19:02

Well, they should work on the elephant populations so we can start getting guilt - free ivory again. Piano keys just don't feel the same!

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Re: Ivory, really?

by blairswhitaker » Dec 9th, '14, 04:55

I am basically 100% sure you can't buy and drink Japanese tea and Japanese tea ware without some of the money you spend going to people who buy, sell, and use Ivory. I mean if your'e drinking any of the selections from Ippodo, any of the Matcha from O-cha, any of the Matcha from Hibiki-An... You are buying from people who's tea manufactures are guaranteed to own a sizable collection of chaire with zoge lids, and in the case of companies like Ippodo, who work with Urasenke and Omotosenke, who's literal millions of members all own chaire with zoge lids, then perhaps a boycott on all Japanese tea is in order for those of you who feel boycotting will provide a solution or at the very least a reaction.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by rdl » Dec 9th, '14, 10:57

...but there are two ways to approach something. start at the end and take steps back telling yourself nothing will change; everyone, everything is corrupt. or start at the beginning and see how each step can make progress with all the complicated factors of making change in 2014.
we all can choose but those who preach the former don't, personally, persuade me to not take up the challenge. However it does open up the complexities of it and that's a good thing.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by BioHorn » Dec 9th, '14, 23:52

Today on John Stewart:

http://www.lastdaysofivory.com/

Connecting violent groups, extinction and the ivory trade.
Kathryn Bigelow, Director
Juan Zarate, Strategic Advisor

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Re:

by kyarazen » Dec 10th, '14, 00:09

bonescwa wrote:Well, they should work on the elephant populations so we can start getting guilt - free ivory again. Piano keys just don't feel the same!
anyone working on the trilobite population so that we can get more fossil fuels in the future?

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Re: Ivory, really?

by bonescwa » Dec 10th, '14, 06:22

kyarazen wrote:
bonescwa wrote:Well, they should work on the elephant populations so we can start getting guilt - free ivory again. Piano keys just don't feel the same!
anyone working on the trilobite population so that we can get more fossil fuels in the future?
They should be

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Re: Ivory, really?

by Jayaratna » Dec 10th, '14, 06:31

Just adding a little more details to this complex problem.

a) Elephants in Asia are in danger more because of habitat reduction due to agriculture. In India, for instance, during the harvest time things get very difficult both for elephants and for village people: they happen to fight each other at night over the fields bordering the forest. In tea gardens they have to keep corridors for elephant migrations and plantations are often protected with electric wires. If you ever drank tea from a teabag, or have eaten basmati rice, your cup or your bowl could have had something to do with elephants.

b) As for cow meat, it is not true that Indians don't touch cows at all. In Kerala even orthodox Hindus eat cow meat. And when a cow dyes it doesn't get wasted simply because it's sacred. A LIVING cow is sacred because it gives more wealth than a dead one: you get milk and a blessing too.

c) Take for example the leather trade: you can buy products made from exotic leathers (such as crocodile, for instance), provided you get a certification that the skin came from a farm appointed by CITES. It happens with plants also: you can own a plant listed in the appendix I of CITES (the one listing species facing extinction) provided you got the material from reliable, certified sources. In the case of plants I can cite many species that have been actually saved from extinction thanks to collectors who increased the demand of legal planting material and preserved and documented their lineages in collections. I suppose the same happened with crocodiles.

*Disclaimer: I do not posses any ivory nor I am in favour of illegal ivory trade.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by Chip » Dec 10th, '14, 12:27

BioHorn wrote:Today on John Stewart:

http://www.lastdaysofivory.com/

Connecting violent groups, extinction and the ivory trade.
Kathryn Bigelow, Director
Juan Zarate, Strategic Advisor
I cannot view this where I am right now but will be sure to check it out later today. Thanks.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by Chip » Dec 10th, '14, 12:39

blairswhitaker wrote:I am basically 100% sure you can't buy and drink Japanese tea and Japanese tea ware without some of the money you spend going to people who buy, sell, and use Ivory. I mean if your'e drinking any of the selections from Ippodo, any of the Matcha from O-cha, any of the Matcha from Hibiki-An... You are buying from people who's tea manufactures are guaranteed to own a sizable collection of chaire with zoge lids, and in the case of companies like Ippodo, who work with Urasenke and Omotosenke, who's literal millions of members all own chaire with zoge lids, then perhaps a boycott on all Japanese tea is in order for those of you who feel boycotting will provide a solution or at the very least a reaction.
rdl wrote:...but there are two ways to approach something. start at the end and take steps back telling yourself nothing will change; everyone, everything is corrupt. or start at the beginning and see how each step can make progress with all the complicated factors of making change in 2014.
we all can choose but those who preach the former don't, personally, persuade me to not take up the challenge. However it does open up the complexities of it and that's a good thing.
Well, as individuals we can sometimes only fairly take action based upon facts we know. I would certainly not be comfortable boycotting the entire Japanese tea industry based upon this info as I presently know it. I Can however take action upon sellers fairly openly selling ivory to the west in the form of chaire lids. This is limited in scope, albeit, but is directly going to impact those I know are selling ivory versus penalizing farmers and others not engaged in ivory trading.

Alternately, if a westerner was studying chado in Japan, they could have a direct impact.

Also, it is the makers of chaire who are continuing this practice, yeah due to demand. But a few Japanese potters could have a huge impact if they suddenly would not sell ivory lids with their chaire and would explain why. Wishful thinking ... but it could rock the industry.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by Chip » Dec 10th, '14, 17:49

Chip wrote:
BioHorn wrote:Today on John Stewart:

http://www.lastdaysofivory.com/

Connecting violent groups, extinction and the ivory trade.
Kathryn Bigelow, Director
Juan Zarate, Strategic Advisor
I cannot view this where I am right now but will be sure to check it out later today. Thanks.
OK, this should be viewed, IMHO. If everyone went to this site and read the brief report and brief video, maybe change would happed, wishful thinking perhaps.

But to summarize ... according to this report and very short video.

every 15 minutes an elephant is killed for its tusks illegally
that is 96 per day
and an astounding almost 34,000 per year

At this current rate the elephants will be virtually extinct in 11 years.

They go on to proclaim that the end buyer is not simply buying an ivory trinket, but is funding the 4th largest illegal activity on the planet.

Also they claim that terror groups use the illegal ivory trade to fund their terrorist activities such as the Westgate Mall massacre.

So, buying newer ivory is subsidizing illegal poaching and terrorism whether it is legal in Japan or China, does not matter. It is truly sickening to me.

I see some posters trivializing this and posting in self justification. Maybe there are bigger problems in the world, but this may be a perfect metaphor for man's greed and vanity, killing off the planet's most majestic animals so they can hold a piece of what killed them in their hands. While 99.9% of the animal is wasted ...

There is nothing ... pretty about this.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by jayinhk » Dec 10th, '14, 22:58

Frankly, it's disgusting, and so is anyone who supports the illegal trade in any way.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by BioHorn » Dec 10th, '14, 23:04

Chip wrote:
BioHorn wrote:Today on John Stewart:

http://www.lastdaysofivory.com/

Connecting violent groups, extinction and the ivory trade.
Kathryn Bigelow, Director
Juan Zarate, Strategic Advisor
I cannot view this where I am right now but will be sure to check it out later today. Thanks.
Thank you for expounding. At this point I just do not have the time I'd like to dedicate to TC. Still love you all!

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Re: Ivory, really?

by entropyembrace » Dec 10th, '14, 23:17

Chip wrote:
Chip wrote:
BioHorn wrote:Today on John Stewart:

http://www.lastdaysofivory.com/

Connecting violent groups, extinction and the ivory trade.
Kathryn Bigelow, Director
Juan Zarate, Strategic Advisor
I cannot view this where I am right now but will be sure to check it out later today. Thanks.
OK, this should be viewed, IMHO. If everyone went to this site and read the brief report and brief video, maybe change would happed, wishful thinking perhaps.

But to summarize ... according to this report and very short video.

every 15 minutes an elephant is killed for its tusks illegally
that is 96 per day
and an astounding almost 34,000 per year

At this current rate the elephants will be virtually extinct in 11 years.

They go on to proclaim that the end buyer is not simply buying an ivory trinket, but is funding the 4th largest illegal activity on the planet.

Also they claim that terror groups use the illegal ivory trade to fund their terrorist activities such as the Westgate Mall massacre.

So, buying newer ivory is subsidizing illegal poaching and terrorism whether it is legal in Japan or China, does not matter. It is truly sickening to me.

I see some posters trivializing this and posting in self justification. Maybe there are bigger problems in the world, but this may be a perfect metaphor for man's greed and vanity, killing off the planet's most majestic animals so they can hold a piece of what killed them in their hands. While 99.9% of the animal is wasted ...

There is nothing ... pretty about this.
And if all the elephants are killed to satisfy short-term demand for ivory today tomorrow people will have to get used to using resin lids on chaire anyway. Or people won't because you already have ivory, who cares if people in the future won't be so lucky and a keystone species which is important for the integrity of the ecosystem in which it inhabits is gone?

All I see is short-term selfish greed in the illegal ivory trade. Get your ivory quick before it's gone!

There are alternatives but really being sure that you're getting ethically harvested ivory is hard unless you're close to the source like in theredbaron's example.

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Re: Ivory, really?

by theredbaron » Dec 11th, '14, 00:23

Chip wrote: I see some posters trivializing this and posting in self justification. Maybe there are bigger problems in the world, but this may be a perfect metaphor for man's greed and vanity, killing off the planet's most majestic animals so they can hold a piece of what killed them in their hands. While 99.9% of the animal is wasted ...

There is nothing ... pretty about this.


This is an unjust accusation that i cannot let stand like this. I do not have the impression that anyone here "trivializes and posts in self justification" the issue of illegal ivory.
On the opposite - i argue that demands for a blanket boycott as you and others here propose lead to the same result the decades of the drug wars have resulted in: the problem is only getting compounded while root causes are not treated. It's a knee jerk reaction that results from a fanatic tunnel vision and lack of education of a very complex problem.

We are in complete agreement that the illegal trade of ivory is despicable. Yet i propose solutions that are practical and sustainable and take factors into consideration that for the sake of convenience are completely dismissed and ignored by proponents of blanket boycotts - such as cultural and economical ones. The world does not circle around the whims of the 2% that have the luck to live in the developed world. If you want to find solutions than you have to consider the problems of the remaining 98% of humanity.

You fall for PR (e.g. a melodramatic "the planets most majetic animals"), while ignoring that the illegal ivory trade is just one small part of a much larger problem.
Do you, for example, eat ocean fish? The fishing industry's wholesale slaughter of fish has potentially far more devastating effects on the world than the potential extinction of elephants. And in that business the major culprits are in the developed world - Europe, the US and Japan, both as perpetrators and as end users. But of course - some small slimy fish is neither majestic nor cute. There are many more such examples i could cite.
Even the use of personal computers and mobile phones by us automatically contributes to African wars, which directly contributes to the extinction of species. Just look up blood Coltan.

The illegal ivory trade is one small issue which is part of a much larger context - and that context is the way you and i are living. Indignation over the illegal ivory trade, proposing blanket boycotts, while at the same time ignoring root causes which all come to down to one point - unjust distribution of wealth in the world - of which you and i are clear beneficiaries. Raving and ranting about ivory may give you the comfort of being able to shift blame, but it is no solution. It even makes things worse.

But of course, what i say here is off-topic glibberish... ;)

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