Hei cha and pu-erh

[Rithmomachy]

What is hei cha? Hei cha of course is Chinese for "black tea," referring not to what is called "black tea" in English (which is hong cha, "red tea" in Chinese) but to "post-fermented" tea. It's not entirely clear what that means, though.

Liu An and Liu Bao seem to be the most common forms of hei cha, but it's hard to get much information about them. Liu Bao production was apparently the basis that Menghai and Kunming used to develop ripe pu-erh in the 70s, but it's not that clear to me how Liu Bao is made. Jas-etea's site says that the fermentation process for Liu Bao only goes back to the 50s, and this description doesn't mention anything like a wo dui process. Is there raw as well as cooked Liu Bao? Does deliberately fermented hei cha date back earlier than the 50s?

Liu An is similar from what I can tell, but apparently is wasn't produced from the 50s to the 80s. The modern Liu An seems to be fermented like shu pu-erh, but Entropyembrace mentioned getting raw Liu An in an earlier thread.

I've also found Hunan fu zhuang ("fu" brick) tea, which is apparently made for export to Mongolia. It looks and tastes like a "cooked" tea, but I can't find any information at all on how it is made or what its history is. Hunan also produces 1000 tael tea, huge logs of tea compressed into trunks of bamboo, but I don't know anything about it. Is it "cooked" or is it aged? Then there is Tibetian brick tea from Hunan, but again, I don't know anything about it or how it differs from pu-erh or fu tea.

Does anyone know the history of hei cha or what makes these teas different from one another? The ones I've tried seem similar, but I haven't had enough samples to know what characteristics are typical and what are peculiar to those samples. I'm especially curious whether the production of thse teas is an old tradition or a more recent invention, and if the latter, what the origin of the modern processing is.

Hopefully bearsbearsbears or one of the many other experts here can provide some answers . . . .

[plant partaker]

yunnan sourcing says that this tea: Anhui varietal of black tea processed in the traditional "wo dui" method. "Wo dui" or fermentation piling process is a precursor to the method used to produced ripe pu-erh. As far as its orign of time, I have no clue. I am still waiting on my sample of this from yunnan sourcing. I hate slow deliveries.

[skilfautdire]

Maybe you already know about this (maybe I've even taken the link from here ... or maybe I found it when doing searches). it is from an online vendor called Vicony (online vendor as in: minimum order one ton ) and describes hei cha:

http://www.viconyteas.com/directory/tea ... k-tea.html

Going further, the Hunan Fu brick eg. from Yunnansourcing, could have been inoculated with Fu which is a fungus part of the traditional Chinese medecine pharmacopia. Doing a search on "Poris Cocos" (which is Fu) will yield some Occidental people giving it curing properties, notably it seems, for fighting cancer.

The inoculation of the brick/tea by the fungus would be part of its process.

That's what I found so far. I'm also looking forward to taste some.

With Fu we have the Chinese tea but we also have the Chinese legend and/or fable (or facts ?) that goes with it.

Interesting.

[OchameTaiken]

Hei cha is simply "black tea," or post-fermented as a category among the other colors of tea in China: white, yellow, green, semi-green, red, black.

The idea that pu'er is a category of tea in and of itself is as short-sighted as saying that sencha is a category separate from green tea. Pu'er belongs within the (slightly) broader category of post-fermented, or "black" tea.

Nowadays, we tend to enter a specialty tea shop to be faced with the following categories: white, green, oolong, black, pu'er. But this is only because Chinese pu'er is the the only style of post-fermented tea that these shops have to offer.

In the future, consumers will likely become more educated about post-fermented tea, and realize that pu'er is only one specific style of heicha from a limited region. As the contemporary tea consumer becomes better-informed of new varieties of post-fermented tea, and non-Chinese countries explore the craft of true "Black Tea," I hope we will begin to see teashops arranged:
White, Yellow, Green, Wulong, Black, Post-fermented.

[wyardley]

I agree with most of what OchameTaiken has to say (and personally, I would generally consider puer to fall into the category of heicha), but I do not think you will find universal agreement among Chinese speaking tea people that all puer is in the category of heicha. Some people are reluctant to use that term because it doesn't "sound good".

More puzzling is that if sheng puer is, essentially, if not literally, green tea, at what point does it become heicha? Clearly the leaves and the brewed tea (of young sheng) aren't "dark", and it doesn't have most of the characteristics we associate with heicha yet (this isn't unique to puer, as there are non-ripe versions of, e.g., liuan as well).

See also some of the discussion in:
http://teadrunk.org/viewtopic.php?id=26

To the original question, I am reasonably certain there is raw liuan, and I believe there is also liubao.

[entropyembrace]

Yes there is definitely green Liu An, Jing Tea Shop was selling baskets of it 2 or 3 years ago. They had put it in their green tea section but included a note saying it really deserved it´s own section but that wasn´t practical for their website. They were 2004 production, mine is starting to get a nice aged flavour.

[Rithmomachy]

That's a great link, wyardley. Lots of information. I wish they had more threads!

I did some Googling on skilfautdire's suggestion about fu tea. From what I can tell, it is innnoculated with a fungus, but not the one you're thinking of, which is an enormous underground mushroom that used to be called P. cocos. I've seen a number of websites that translate "fu zuang cha" as "poria cocos brick tea," but that seems to be a mistranslation due to the similarity of the name "fu ling." The fungus used in fu tea is Eurotium cristatum.

I still want to know when the process of making these teas through deliberate fermentation (as opposed to aging in transport and normal storage) got started. No one seems to know!

[honza]

What is hei cha? Hei cha of course is Chinese for "black tea," referring not to what is called "black tea" in English (which is hong cha, "red tea" in Chinese) but to "post-fermented" tea. It's not entirely clear what that means, though.

Liu An and Liu Bao seem to be the most common forms of hei cha, but it's hard to get much information about them. Liu Bao production was apparently the basis that Menghai and Kunming used to develop ripe pu-erh in the 70s, but it's not that clear to me how Liu Bao is made. Jas-etea's site says that the fermentation process for Liu Bao only goes back to the 50s, and this description doesn't mention anything like a wo dui process. Is there raw as well as cooked Liu Bao? Does deliberately fermented hei cha date back earlier than the 50s?

Liu An is similar from what I can tell, but apparently is wasn't produced from the 50s to the 80s. The modern Liu An seems to be fermented like shu pu-erh, but Entropyembrace mentioned getting raw Liu An in an earlier thread.

I've also found Hunan fu zhuang ("fu" brick) tea, which is apparently made for export to Mongolia. It looks and tastes like a "cooked" tea, but I can't find any information at all on how it is made or what its history is. Hunan also produces 1000 tael tea, huge logs of tea compressed into trunks of bamboo, but I don't know anything about it. Is it "cooked" or is it aged? Then there is Tibetian brick tea from Hunan, but again, I don't know anything about it or how it differs from pu-erh or fu tea.

Does anyone know the history of hei cha or what makes these teas different from one another? The ones I've tried seem similar, but I haven't had enough samples to know what characteristics are typical and what are peculiar to those samples. I'm especially curious whether the production of thse teas is an old tradition or a more recent invention, and if the latter, what the origin of the modern processing is.

Hopefully bearsbearsbears or one of the many other experts here can provide some answers . . . .

What is "modern Liuan" ? I only see from Anhui tea more near green tea, more old, the colour is more dark yellow, but not look like shu puerh. Fresh Liuan (from young i have 2008 and tatse last year Liuan), but I think not have fermented like shu puerh.
I only know, people who sell heicha say, some Guangdong bussines man make fake Liuan, just shu puerh and keep some short time in wet place, and sell this like "old liuan". This tea is near shu puerh, because it´s shu puerh.
Know some one more?

[gingkoseto]

What is "modern Liuan" ? I only see from Anhui tea more near green tea, more old, the colour is more dark yellow, but not look like shu puerh. Fresh Liuan (from young i have 2008 and tatse last year Liuan), but I think not have fermented like shu puerh.
I only know, people who sell heicha say, some Guangdong bussines man make fake Liuan, just shu puerh and keep some short time in wet place, and sell this like "old liuan". This tea is near shu puerh, because it´s shu puerh.
Know some one more?

I don't know what "modern Liu An" means.

Theoretically Liu An tea (tea from Liu An region of An Hui) has two styles, Liu An Gua Pian (Northern Liu An) and Sun Yishun (a historical brand name) Liu An (also called Southern Liu An, because it's from the south of Liu An region). But if you ask a Chinese out of Guangdong, chances are she has no idea what Sun Yishun Liu An is. Liu An Gua Pian is one of the most popular green teas in China. Sun Yishun Liu An is only regionally popular in Guangdong.

Sun Yishun Liu An can be categorized as a Hei Cha because it has post-fermentation - fermentation after the product is manufactured. The raw, or fermented Liu An is similar to Liu An Gua Pian, but not at that level of quality. It will be crazy to use leaves at Liu An Gua Pian quality to make Hei Cha.

[gingkoseto]

Talking about Hei Cha, Fu Zhuan is one of the most popular Hei Cha products throughout Chinese history. But even that one has never been largely enjoyed by the main population so far. It's getting more and more popular in China in recent years. But I don't know if the "golden flowers" will ever get FDA approved (http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14692)

[honza]

I don't know what "modern Liu An" means.

Theoretically Liu An tea (tea from Liu An region of An Hui) has two styles, Liu An Gua Pian (Northern Liu An) and Sun Yishun (a historical brand name) Liu An (also called Southern Liu An, because it's from the south of Liu An region). But if you ask a Chinese out of Guangdong, chances are she has no idea what Sun Yishun Liu An is. Liu An Gua Pian is one of the most popular green teas in China. Sun Yishun Liu An is only regionally popular in Guangdong.

Sun Yishun Liu An can be categorized as a Hei Cha because it has post-fermentation - fermentation after the product is manufactured. The raw, or fermented Liu An is similar to Liu An Gua Pian, but not at that level of quality. It will be crazy to use leaves at Liu An Gua Pian quality to make Hei Cha.

Thanks. Oh, in past i think Liuan Gua Pian is kind of green tea and not have common topic, only place. The tea trees in Liuan are the same with trees for LGP ? I reading is the same with tea gardens for Qimen (some chinese wrote, people make now more Qimen, becuase is more better for sale than Liuan.
Have more small factory, not only Sun Yi Shun Brand, right? And is not only one tea factory make brand Sun Yi Shun? I see three or more different neipiao, all caled Sun Yi Shun! All wrote, "no copy" ...

[honza]

Talking about Hei Cha, Fu Zhuan is one of the most popular Hei Cha products throughout Chinese history. But even that one has never been largely enjoyed by the main population so far. It's getting more and more popular in China in recent years. But I don't know if the "golden flowers" will ever get FDA approved (http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14692)

Fu Zhuan is really good , "shouzhu fu zhuan" with golden flower, i like it so much.

[gingkoseto]

Talking about Hei Cha, Fu Zhuan is one of the most popular Hei Cha products throughout Chinese history. But even that one has never been largely enjoyed by the main population so far. It's getting more and more popular in China in recent years. But I don't know if the "golden flowers" will ever get FDA approved (http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14692)

Fu Zhuan is really good , "shouzhu fu zhuan" with golden flower, i like it so much.

My recent favorite is a "shouzhu fu zhuan" from Zhong Cha (CNNP)

[gingkoseto]

Thanks. Oh, in past i think Liuan Gua Pian is kind of green tea and not have common topic, only place. The tea trees in Liuan are the same with trees for LGP ? I reading is the same with tea gardens for Qimen (some chinese wrote, people make now more Qimen, becuase is more better for sale than Liuan.
Have more small factory, not only Sun Yi Shun Brand, right? And is not only one tea factory make brand Sun Yi Shun? I see three or more different neipiao, all caled Sun Yi Shun! All wrote, "no copy" ...

Sun Yishun today is more of a name for the style than a brand name. When the old Sun Yishun made his brand, there was no patent law yet

Most Chinese tea books agree that the current famous Liu An Gua Pian was invented in early 1900s (around 1905). Liu An tea was famous in Tang dynasty (according to a Qing dynasty book quoting Tang and Song historical record), but there is no way to know if that Tang dynasty tea is same as Liu An tea today. The tea cultivar of Liu An may not be the same as cultivar for Keemun tea. But in the old days, southern Liu An (where Sun Yishun Liu An is produced) refers to an area to the south of Long River that belongs to Qimen region. It looks like Sun Yishun Liu An is closer to the most traditional style of Liu An tea and then people made Liu An Gua Pian as a more refined form of tea. I like Gua Pian a lot more than Sun Yishun