Opinions on Fukamashi and Organic Fukamashi

[britt]

A decision was made to delete parts of another thread where fukamashi was being discussed. Although these posts were called off-topic, I felt some of the issues were relevant and warranted discussion. I respect the decision of the moderator and understand the balance and order that a moderator must maintain, but when subjects are deleted the ability for us to learn is usually reduced along with it.

I am carrying over some of the issues from that discussion to it's own thread. Hopefully eveyone will be allowed to express their honest opinion without being attacked by those who disagree with them, regardless of which view they take. I am not claiming superiority for any particular type of sencha, but for those who do I would like to hear how those judgments were made.

It has been my observation after consuming dozens of bags of fukamashi that the non-organic ones usually consist of severely broken leaves that result from the deep-steaming process. In general, I do not find this to lower my opinion of fukamashi because I understand that deep-steaming tea leaves not only results in broken ones, but also produces a unique flavor that is unlike any other tea. In some cases the tea dust has been excessive and I classify that particular lot as junk, but this has happened to me only a few times. The majority of my fukamashi purchases were exceptional. Fukamashi has been my first choice until recently, now some good-quality low and mid-steamed teas are giving it some competition. I will continue drinking all three types unless I find one type to be clearly superior to the others.

1. For those who do not like fukamashi, is this because of the taste of the tea, the sight of broken leaves, the clogging of the filter, or some combination of these? Do those who rate the tea poorly based on its apearance understand that the broken leaves are a natural byproduct of the deep-steaming process and that this process also produces the unique flavor that so many tea drinkers like?

2. Does anyone seriously dispute that non-organic fukamashi contains a large amount of broken leaves and varying amounts of tea dust? Regardless of why this occurs, or the justifications for this, or how good the taste is as a result of deep-steaming, can anyone actually state honestly that they have not observed this?

3. It has been my observation based on the organic fukamashi's from Yuuki-cha that organic fukamashi's have far less broken leaf than the non-organics (this is not a statement that these are superior in taste). Does anyone know why organic fukamashi's have more complete leaves? Does this mean they are steamed less, or that the organic leaves are more sturdy or better quality? Does the use of pesticides contribute to the breakdown of the leaf when it is steamed?

[Chip]

Moderator post.

A decision was made because ...

1) there was an "issue" that you did not see that was resolved. The person involved deleted all his posts' contents, not I.

2) You then went in and expressed opinion and judged members based upon by your own admission, a small part of the discussion. You also cast judgement upon posters based upon what was left after the deleting by the member, which I felt was unwarranted.

3) Your post made little sense after I cleaned up the topic and I removed the other posters' posts who were involved.

4) I just put a flame war out, and you endeavored to rekindle it. TeaChat is a peaceful place, and I would recommend other forums for anyone interested in flame wars.

If you want to post a topic, just post a topic, don't begin a topic by pointing fingers. I think everyone is here for the open discussion of tea related topics, and not for the drama you are trying to drag into the discussion.

[Chip]

I would say there are all grades of fukamushi, exceptional, good, bad, poor.

There can be bottom of the barrel issues, luck of the draw perhaps. That can be with any tea.

There are depths of steaming. I would guess some fukamushi is deeper steamed than other fukamushi. And there is not a line drawn that states if you steam X seconds, it is fukamushi.

Some might argue that the organic you mention is borderline chumushi ... this is my theory based on my own experience and conversations.

And then, most non organic fuka is blended, this could result in further breaking down of leaf size ... more handling, more breaking. Most organic is single estate, more often not blended, or blended less.

I have had very fine leaf fuka that kicked the azz of the larger leaf partical versions. I have not had fukamushi from my fave 5 Japanese vendors that was made of dust. This is really apparent after brewing and observing the unfolded leaves in the pot. These may at times require more careful pouring, but as I stated, I have no issues with fave 5 fukamushi sources.

[alan logan]

1. For those who do not like fukamashi, is this because of the taste of the tea, the sight of broken leaves, the clogging of the filter, or some combination of these? Do those who rate the tea poorly based on its apearance understand that the broken leaves are a natural byproduct of the deep-steaming process and that this process also produces the unique flavor that so many tea drinkers like?

I understand the process and its "history", so i don't underrate fukamushi : it is like roasting, it is a skill and will be conducted according to the leaves and what is expacted from them.
Yet, if I try to "generalize", which is hard to do anyway, I think I find less steamed japanese greens to offer more subtle tones, and more lkely these floral tones I enjoy. deeper steaming will offer a "bigger" sensation in mouth, a more obvious one if you like, lighter steaming will have to be approached differently.
I would not try to compare the two kinds, they are really different in my perception; the difference is to me more than a difference of degree in process, it is like the difference between two kinds of teas. let's say, like the difference between chinese greens and chinese yellows. (of course you can always find teas that are sort of half-way, and do not fall radically in one or the other "categories")

3. Does anyone know why organic fukamashi's have more complete leaves?

I have no technical experience to try an answer, but I would guess any of these reasons could be involved, or others (wtaer content rate in the plant, cultivars most involved, biotopes...)

[Chip]

To further what I have stated about degrees of fuka steaming. I had yuuki-cha'a YM version, it is definitely less steamed than possibly any other Yutaka Midori I have ever had. Thus larger particles. IMHO.

[Chip]

And as I have stated many times, I like all steam levels, prefering to have a fuka and an asa open so there is variety.

I just do not like to hear fuka getting a bad (and incorrect) rap by refering to it as compost or whatever.

People are going to like what they like, and their tastes will change. Just like with oolong, there is the less processed green Taiwan oolong, then there is the more processed Oriental Beauty. Is OB wrong because it has been processed more and the leaf is not green? Of course not. It is just a matter of how the tea is made and personal taste.

It is also partly respecting the tastes of others ... I have seen this play out since I have been on TC.

[AdamMY]

A discussion on the IM, which I think was prompted by the huge fight over which is Superior Asamushi or Fukamushi, lead to this comment upon their likeness by EntropyEmbrace right after trying her first Asamushi Sencha

"Asa and Fuka are rather similar."

Which they really are, they both have nice broth like nature to them, the difference is the deeper steaming tends to severely subdue or hide certain categories or flavors while bringing out others. Most notably I have yet to have a Fukamushi that has a grain or cereal taste anywhere near comparable to most Asamushi. But then again different flavors develop through the steaming process for Fukamushi.

But in the end they are rather similar, and taste preferences of people will lean towards one or the other, as it happens with all similar yet different things. (Coke vs. Pepsi anyone?)


**edited for clarity, I must have gotten distracted when first writing this and missed a few words.

[entropyembrace]

Yep I was trying the Asas from OTTI 7 just after all this happened...and I was struck more by the similarities rather than the differences between Asa and Fuka...afterall both are Japanese varietals, grown in Japan, under full sunlight and processed as steamed green teas.

The one that really stood apart was the Togei kabusecha....which was partially shade grown and very very grassy...I ended with a negative impression of it because I don´t like grassy tea....but I saw others were excited by how grassy it was.

[Ambrose]

Ive tried some fuka but I personally felt that fuka is a way to make something out of a lower grade leaf. I now drink asamushi sencha, im sure this is just a matter of preference. Just on how I too dont like grassy sencha

[Chip]

Ive tried some fuka but I personally felt that fuka is a way to make something out of a lower grade leaf. I now drink asamushi sencha, im sure this is just a matter of preference. Just on how I too dont like grassy sencha

There is a bit of a stigma about fuka, that it is made of inferior leaf.

There are grades of asa and fuka. Some of each are made with exceptional leaf, and obviously some from not so exceptional. But they do not simply look at a leaf and say, "that is inferior, we will deep steam it."

I would have to say that in order to stand up to the deeper steaming, it likely has to start out as a high quality leaf or fuka would be dust. But fuka is actually finer particals that had been rolled just like asa, this is revealed upon brewing.

Dust is byproduct tea basically ... what is leftover in production and can be redeemed for teabags, etc.

Where as fukamushi is highly designed and carefully created from the bush to the bag.

As with all my opinions/experience, I always say, "drink what mushi you like, like what mushi you drink."

[Chip]

And then there are varietals seemingly more suited for fuka, for instance Yutaka Midori and even Sae Midori. You do not see these offered as asamushi. And to many, they are superior varietals to Yabukita for instance.

Of course, this is again opinion.

[tortoise]

I really like them both but prefer to drink fuka more regularly. I suffer no stigma concerning the quality of fuka. It seems to me that producers use excellent leaf for fuka production as well as asa. I never had the impression that fuka began with an inferior grade leaf.

I have had the yuuki organic YM and I agree that it was moderately less broken than the O-cha YM. It is also not nearly as tasty, IMO. That is not meant as a general knock against organic teas, just concerning those two.

Honestly, I don't care how broken the fukamushicha is -- if it tastes amazing.

Off-hand comment: I don't like yabukita fukamushi, but will drink it as asamushi all day!

[Uji]

This whole discussion about the credibility of Fukamushi is a bit bizarre. There are no "flaw" teas, another bizarre concept. Delcious Fukamushi, delicious Gyokuro, delicious Houjicha, and let's not forget delicious (your tea here). Some of the snobbery here makes for some good funny entertainment, so I'll be back for the laughs.

Unfortunately the organic teas I've tried seemed to lack the flavor of non-organic teas. I hope someday all the teas are the healthier organic type and will taste as good as the chemical ones. Until then. Anyone recommending a tasty organic Fukamushi I will give it another try. As a side note, Japanese teas as opposed to the Chinese teas seem to have stricter standards for chemical residue on their standard farmed teas

[entropyembrace]

Unfortunately the organic teas I've tried seemed to lack the flavor of non-organic teas. I hope someday all the teas are the healthier organic type and will taste as good as the chemical ones. Until then. Anyone recommending a tasty organic Fukamushi I will give it another try. As a side note, Japanese teas as opposed to the Chinese teas seem to have stricter standards for chemical residue on their standard farmed teas

Try Ooigawa Supreme or Oku Yutaka from O-cha. I think both can compete with other fukas in their price range.

[Kevangogh]

This whole discussion about the credibility of Fukamushi is a bit bizarre. There are no "flaw" teas, another bizarre concept. Delcious Fukamushi, delicious Gyokuro, delicious Houjicha, and let's not forget delicious (your tea here).

+1.