Qianlong Yixing question.

[In search of truth]

I have been fortunate enough to obtain a 22cm tall terribly broken Yixing Coffee pot and would like to ask whether in fact it is a coffee pot or a wine pot or just an extraordinarily shaped teapot ?

I thought that perhaps it may have been exported and used in the coffee houses in London in the mid 18th century but the decoration seems to be purely Chinese for dpmestic consumption.

Also,how is such a piece dated and does anyone have further details about the onject ?

Also,could such a piece be repaired satisfactorily?

It is the same pattern as this one at Woolley and Wallis.

Thank you for any help that you can offer.

[Ostara]

I actually saw one exactly like this one posted up on ebay that was in fact also badly broken

[the_economist]

quite so. insearchoftruth has been known to come here looking for information so as to better sell his wares to auction houses, even if told that such wares are very very unlikely to be genuine (http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=16080).

[In search of truth]

A very harsh comment,I must say.

I've still got the Jiang Rong marked teapot and turned down $5k thank you very much.

If anyone can assist rather than rudely respond I would appreciate it.

Not sure why economist has taken such a contrary view of me but I hope to win him over.

My question is not financial,rather one of educational learning.

I am surprised in the decoration of the piece which is very Chinese and not 'export type' decoration.

If you can help I would appreciate it,that also goes out to the economist;life is too short to make enemies for no good reason.

[the_economist]

The reason for my view can be found in the thread I posted. Others may decide as they deem fit. I just thought your 'disclaimer' in the other thread should be placed here too before wiser heads than I dispense their advice (although in any case you don't seem to believe their evaluations).

As to this particular piece, I make no comment. I know nothing.

And that's it from me Peace out.

[In search of truth]

I still have faith in the Jiang Rong piece,whether it is genuine or not I have been unable to discover.

I can find no one in the U.K that can actually evaluate the piece.

The evaluation from photographs by Christies was that it was genuine but too new for any of their sales.

This to me was most odd when you consider that they are a business that earn their money by commission only.

My pictures fail to do the piece justice.

Glazed Yixing is not common (in fact one Chinese poster cut and pasted a tree trunk pot which was beside a tin of red paint and said that perhaps there was a green tin somewhere unphotographed) and those that I have seen,including an obvious fake Jiang Rong do not come near the quality of the green glazed piece.

Remember.I am only the owner,not the potter,but I do collect teapots from the 18th c onwards so can appreciate a good piece not only by sight but by handling.

I hope that this reply has put that particular thread to bed but welcome input.

Being wrong is not a problem for me,but I do believe that the piece deserved a robust defence.

This piece I have no doubt of its genuineness,I simply wish to learn how such a piece was dated to mid 18th c ,its purpose and whether it was made for overseas buyers rather than domestic,

Its shape is unique compared to other Yixing and I am hoping Chinese collectors will be able to add further insight to the piece.

I hope you accept the genuineness of my reply,economist,there is no hidden agenda.

[TIM]

I still have faith in the Jiang Rong piece,whether it is genuine or not I have been unable to discover.

I can find no one in the U.K that can actually evaluate the piece.

The evaluation from photographs by Christies was that it was genuine but too new for any of their sales.

This to me was most odd when you consider that they are a business that earn their money by commission only.

My pictures fail to do the piece justice.

Glazed Yixing is not common (in fact one Chinese poster cut and pasted a tree trunk pot which was beside a tin of red paint and said that perhaps there was a green tin somewhere unphotographed) and those that I have seen,including an obvious fake Jiang Rong do not come near the quality of the green glazed piece.

Remember.I am only the owner,not the potter,but I do collect teapots from the 18th c onwards so can appreciate a good piece not only by sight but by handling.

I hope that this reply has put that particular thread to bed but welcome input.

Being wrong is not a problem for me,but I do believe that the piece deserved a robust defence.

This piece I have no doubt of its genuineness,I simply wish to learn how such a piece was dated to mid 18th c ,its purpose and whether it was made for overseas buyers rather than domestic,

Its shape is unique compared to other Yixing and I am hoping Chinese collectors will be able to add further insight to the piece.

I hope you accept the genuineness of my reply,economist,there is no hidden agenda.

Jiang Rong for 5 k is a real joke.
http://auction4.artrade.com/jiade/aucti ... ?code=4363

[MarshalN]

I still have faith in the Jiang Rong piece,whether it is genuine or not I have been unable to discover.

I can find no one in the U.K that can actually evaluate the piece.

The evaluation from photographs by Christies was that it was genuine but too new for any of their sales.

This to me was most odd when you consider that they are a business that earn their money by commission only.

My pictures fail to do the piece justice.

Glazed Yixing is not common (in fact one Chinese poster cut and pasted a tree trunk pot which was beside a tin of red paint and said that perhaps there was a green tin somewhere unphotographed) and those that I have seen,including an obvious fake Jiang Rong do not come near the quality of the green glazed piece.

Remember.I am only the owner,not the potter,but I do collect teapots from the 18th c onwards so can appreciate a good piece not only by sight but by handling.

I hope that this reply has put that particular thread to bed but welcome input.

Being wrong is not a problem for me,but I do believe that the piece deserved a robust defence.

This piece I have no doubt of its genuineness,I simply wish to learn how such a piece was dated to mid 18th c ,its purpose and whether it was made for overseas buyers rather than domestic,

Its shape is unique compared to other Yixing and I am hoping Chinese collectors will be able to add further insight to the piece.

I hope you accept the genuineness of my reply,economist,there is no hidden agenda.

Having worked at Sotheby's before, albeit briefly, I can tell you that their evaluations, especially if over photos sent online, are at best a "beginning" of a relationship, and all their evaluations, even for pieces in their actual auctions, carry heavy caveats. They could tell you that it looks like a genuine article in an email and when you bring it in, they'll tell you "oh, wait, no, this is a fake" on the spot. In other words, what you received from Christie's is not really an endorsement, especially if they told you to go away and find someone else to sell it. Your Jiang Rong piece (I just went back to the thread you posted and looked at the pics) is definitely fake - the quality of the work is piss poor for what is supposed to be a Jiang Rong pot. The other person who was posting about it in that mysterious "other" forum may also be posting a fake - have you considered that? If you go to taobao (China's eBay) and type in Jiang Rong you'll find 46 pages of pots for her, 100% of which are fake, and most look far better than what you posted here.

As for this particular item you're talking about, got any pictures? Dating these are tricky, but clay composition is one way.

[Tead Off]

I have been fortunate enough to obtain a 22cm tall terribly broken Yixing Coffee pot and would like to ask whether in fact it is a coffee pot or a wine pot or just an extraordinarily shaped teapot ?

I thought that perhaps it may have been exported and used in the coffee houses in London in the mid 18th century but the decoration seems to be purely Chinese for dpmestic consumption.

Also,how is such a piece dated and does anyone have further details about the onject ?

Also,could such a piece be repaired satisfactorily?

It is the same pattern as this one at Woolley and Wallis.

Thank you for any help that you can offer.

This is a Tibetan style ewer which has its origins in the Yuan dynasty and Yongle period of early Ming dynasty. But, this is a much later style and is definitely not a coffee pot. Wine or beer but the one you illustrate is modern. Since you don't post a photo of the one you have, how can one really comment?

[In search of truth]

Apologies for my late reply,I;m currently in the U.S on holiday.

Ebay item no. 190597014891 is my large teapoot.

I expect there to be a large hole in the front middle section as this is where the spout appears to originate from on the Woolley and Wallis item.

The hole in the side is probably were someone put a spigot.It is in bad condition but I do like it and should receive it sometime at the end of next week.

Thank you for the information on the piece,it sure seems a large and unusual shape and one for the cabinet.

There are no marks on the piece whatsoever.

I also have a piece with an overhead handle made in the cultural revolution period (identical to the one that did not sell at Woolley and Wallis.
They mention that the mark under the lid (which is different to mine) is a Brigade mark but I cannot find anything about Brigades.

Once again,thank you for your assistance and I hope you accept the fact that my interest is in the historical perspective and not in the financial.

Best regards,

Vic

[Tead Off]

The item on ebay seems to have a very crudely painted decoration. Those dragons do not look nearly as fine as the Wooley and Wallis example. Can you tell me which auction the illustrated ewer appeared in?

I found the W&W example and saw the enlarged photo. It's not new but I can't really tell from the photo if it is antique, (over 100 years of age).

[In search of truth]

Hi,it is identical decoration and same as Woolley & Wallis pot.
The buff clay would be placed in a mould and pressed.When it was drying out it could easily be removed from the mould due to shrinkage and then placed on the body of the pot.
There is no painting involved and it is termed 'sprigging'.
Staffordshire potters copied it in the 18th century for their redware teapots and the technique was also used in the late 17th century in Holland.

When I am back home and it arrives I will take some pictures.

A most unusual and large pot.

[In search of truth]

Marshall,I've re-read your post and I thought the same as you on the other sites green pot being a bit iffy.It doesn't appear to be glazed.

I will make a special effort to take it to Christies or Woolley and Wallis as they have just sold the Arthur Harris collection of Yixing for a hands on
viewing.

My pictures are not so good and do the pot no service.The pot is glazed and high fired like a quality pot shoul be,and not like the other green pots.

Vic

[MarshalN]

No, the leaves alone tell me everything I need to know - it's crude, rough, and unrefined. If Jiang Rong made it, she must've had a stroke that day.

As for this eBay item - I concur with Tead Off's assessment - the painting is very rough and poorly done. The clay also looks like modern clay, rather than 18th century stuff. The spout is in the wrong shape.

[In search of truth]

Your wrong on the tall Yixing,that is a genuine piece and it is not painted but either sprigged in buff coloured clay or slip.I'll know better when it arrives.

Also regarding Jiang Rong (which probably is a tribute piece) she was potting from a very early age and her Melon pot dates to 1984 as far as I can tell.
Incidentally,another pot that I have appears to be by her nephew and comes from the same source,so I may have two wrong'uns there.

Finding images of her early and 1970's and 80's pieces is difficult but I'm sure Chinese users of this site could point us to a few more sites than those that I have so far found.

I managed to pick up some mid to late 19th c Yixing,one with a central detachable strainer and the other with two rings that move on the top.

Dull very dry looking red clay,both cylindrical with straight spouts,one with archaic writing and bats on the top.

I enjoy collecting them but the interesting thing with the Woolley and Wallis sale last week is that many lots were £3-500 and some sold for this while one went for £22,000.

If the auction house expert hasn't a clue (and admitted when I spoke to him earlier in the week that he could only read some Seal script) then it is a very hard field to collect correctly in.

The tall pot went for £4,400 without a lid and the over handled Cultural revolution pot was unsold and bidding had reached £850 so the reserve was probably £1000.

Lots of Chinese bidders in the room and also on the telephones as the Harris collection is/was the best in Europe.