experience with alcohol lamps

[odarwin]

hi guys,

i got myself a yi xing kettle during a trip to Malaysia recently, and after cleaning and sorting the kettle out, im finally ready to use it.

i do have some questions for those who have used clay kettles and alcohol lamps for boiling water....

what is your setup like?

i do have some concerns before i go with alcohol lamp...

1. i was advised to use methanol... and a local supplier where i live sells a 99.9% methanol formula but i was a bit hesitant when he said that it might be a little dangerous given that the flame is almost invisible. also, ive read some articles about methanol being toxic even when inhaling the fumes... can anyone comment on this?

2. soot. i was told by the shop to look for blue flame cause otherwise, soot may form on the bottom of the kettle.

so whats the best alcohol formula to use that will be safe and wont produce soot? i know that a lot will say denatured alcohol, but its formula varies a lot from each brand... and the local brand doesnt specify their formula.

Here are some pics of the kettle




Thanks to marshaln for the citric acid advice... The nasty stuff turned from this


To this...


any help and inputs would be greatly appreciated
-darwin

[Drax]

First, a caveat -- I have no experience with burning any alcohol as a method for boiling water.

But, I am a chemist, so... take that as you will!

I think you're in a Catch-22 with the invisible flame vs soot problem. Pure methanol should burn invisibly (or pretty close, you'll see some wavy/ripple effects probably). If you're seeing anything, then it's because there's an impurity in the methanol that's burning. The problem is that if you're seeing something, then that something is also *probably* generating soot. Maybe not a lot, but over time it would build up. How easy is it to clean off? No clue. (And any denaturing agent is likely going to cause that problem, too).

As for methanol toxicity, I wouldn't worry about it. Just don't inhale directly, and certainly don't drink it. But the small amount that you'd be exposed to shouldn't cause a problem.

So, all that said, I'd be curious what people typically use for alcohol lamps... my guess is that the soot is minimal and that people wipe it off, scrub it off, or live with it?

[wyardley]

I don't worry too much about the soot (and on my glass kettle, it mostly washes off pretty well); on my black Lin's kettle, well... doesn't show up too much. I sometimes use a little Chaozhou kettle, which has picked up a little soot, but that probably adds to its charm (and is nothing compared to what a charcoal stove would do). To be honest, I think that the slight smell the fuel generates, while fairly mild, bothers me way more than the soot on my kettle.

I will say that even with (denatured) ethanol, the stuff you'd normally find for stove fuel in the US, there's quite a bit of variation between brands in terms of how "clean" it seems to burn. I bought the "green" (i.e., supposedly more eco-friendly) version of the SLX brand fuel (sold at Home Depot) last time, and in addition to only coming in smaller containers, it also seems to generate a lot more soot than their regular fuel.

You could also check out this thread:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... d_id=60872

It mentions 'HEET', which it looks like is mostly methanol.

[odarwin]

thanks for both your inputs drax and will,

im also concerned about the toxicity of methanol...
and after calling the local supplier, they do have a 95% ethyl alcohol. i was also told that this is the least toxic between methanol, ethanol and isopropyl.

the seller said thou that both his 99% methanol and 95% ethanol will burn clean and wont leave soot... he said that its more of the wick of the lamp that will cause the soot...

thou twice the price of methanol, im more keen on trying ethanol cause its less toxic... its around $9 per gallon.

any more people here using alcohol lamps with their set up?

[wyardley]

and after calling the local supplier, they do have a 95% ethyl alcohol. i was also told that this is the least toxic between methanol, ethanol and isopropyl.

As I understand it (and from looking at the data sheet for the brand I usually get), I'm pretty sure ethyl alcohol and ethanol are the same thing.

Small amounts of methanol are often used as a denaturing agent.

the seller said thou that both his 99% methanol and 95% ethanol will burn clean and wont leave soot... he said that its more of the wick of the lamp that will cause the soot...

I don't know if it matters, but the Lin's burner (which is what I have) is the wickless kind.

[odarwin]

will, would it be ok to post the picture of the lins burner that you have?

i know by looking at their catalog that they have 2 types of stoves... one is the usual alcohol lamp and the other one is what you might have... im curious as to what it really is cause im planning on buying a set soon and the online catalog they have isnt that detailed on the stove.

my bad actually, i was in KL china town and didnt bother to go over purple cane... i didnt have much time so i just spent time in a few shops and headed over to the shop that i always go to where i got the yi xing jar. at least we had a very nice very old liu bao which is a treat! too bad if i had went over to purple cane and i might have seen the lins set and also gotten one

[MarshalN]

Unless you plan on sticking your nose right in front of the uncovered methanol for hours on end while inhaling deeply, or you plan to drink that stuff, why are you worried about the toxicity?

When it burns it releases the following: CO2, H2O, and nothing else. Anything that forms as a result (soot, etc) are impurities, and not from the methanol itself. It's pretty safe to inhale CO2 and H2O, so why worried?

[odarwin]

Unless you plan on sticking your nose right in front of the uncovered methanol for hours on end while inhaling deeply, or you plan to drink that stuff, why are you worried about the toxicity?

When it burns it releases the following: CO2, H2O, and nothing else. Anything that forms as a result (soot, etc) are impurities, and not from the methanol itself. It's pretty safe to inhale CO2 and H2O, so why worried?

thanks for this fact... i actually didnt know this... so i guess the fumes are perfectly ok then...

[MarshalN]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

"Methanol burns in air, forming carbon dioxide and water:

2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O "

Just use gloves when you pour the stuff, and keep the area ventilated while doing it and you'll be fine.

[odarwin]

I got myelf the 99% methanol. Its colorless, odorless and doesnt leave soot on the kettle. Its quite scary thou cause it looks just like water but has a cool sensation when you touch. Thou im surprised to see an orange flame, as i know it should be blue... Maybe its because of the wick?

[Drax]

As to the orange flame question, I suppose it depends on the wick... is it cloth or glass? If the wick is consumed at all, it might add an orange color to the flame (and you may see soot build up over a long period of time). Otherwise, the orange light is likely coming from the burning of the 1% impurity in the methanol.

The MSDS sheets I saw listed the LD50 of methanol for rats as ~5.5g/kg. For reference, ethanol (yes, the same as ethyl alcohol -- i.e., the stuff in beer, wine, etc), the LD50 for rats was listed as 7-9g/kg.

Again, just don't swallow the stuff. If you ever happen to spill any, remove ALL flame sources, open up windows, let it evaporate and air out the room (and... don't stay in the room while that's happening).

[odarwin]

The wick is new and is cloth... Its difficult to get good stuff here and i really cant get a proper wickles burner...

Id give the 95% ethanol a try next time, it might let me sleep better at night haha i think the 95% should be clean enough to not leave soot

@drax, does 95% ethanol produce a smell when burned?

[Drax]

Hrm, well ethanol itself has a very light odor... I often equate it to something sweet, kinda tingly.

So it may smell a bit like ethanol while burning.

For the case of 95% ethanol, that remaining 5% *should* be water, so there shouldn't be any other issues if that's the case.

[beecrofter]

A pinch of salt on the wick or in the alcohol should color the flame quite yellow.

[odarwin]

Crack! Game over!